Hi all

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Hi all

Postby Noel819 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:38 am

I'm not sure how popular I will or won't be here.

I'm catholic and a fan of a lot of the mens rights stuff, i'm also into spiritual things too.

Despite that I am a big fan of Rebecca Watson and really admire the way she stood up to Dawkins, Krauss and Dillahunty.

I find the whole atheism plus interesting so I thought I would check it out,

Thanks guys
Last edited by SubMor on Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: de-"hi guys"ing the thread title
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Re: Hi guys

Postby Lovely » Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:03 am

Hello!

It's customary around here to leave a link basket for those new to posting. I'd advise reading the rules and guidelines carefully. There's an I&A forum if someone is looking for answers to a direct question.

I would caution, though, that this forum is pretty strict. We are not a debate club, and we're not a "change my view" site. Most folks who stay are atheists and are already well-enough versed in social justice issues before they begin posting regularly. We do not need to defend either of those positions here.

This is fundamentally a forum that provides a space for atheists who, again, are interested in social justice to gather and discuss issues. Most of this site is not 101, and I recommend lurking to understand how this forum operates.
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Re: Hi guys

Postby Avenel » Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:05 am

Welcome aboard, Noel. We are generally more concerned with social justice issues than atheism. Just don't try and proselytize , and there will be no issue.

Just be warned, we are often highly critical of policies of the Catholic Church toward women, and their handling of child molesting priests.

We are also very critical of most of the Man-o-sphere.

If you are looking for debate club, this is not the place.
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Re: Hi guys

Postby SubMor » Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:53 am

Hi Noel. In addition to the above, I would also add that if you want to get a better understanding of this place, take your time and read through the various threads in the Information and Answers subforum (after you finish the link basket material, of course). Also, leave whatever stereotypes you may have picked up from MRA sites at the door, thanks.

PS: Watson "stood up to" Dillahunty? For what, exactly? I can think of some nonsense Dawkins and Krauss have been involved in, but Dillahunty? I don't remember any interaction between the two of them.
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Re: Hi guys

Postby Sun Countess » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:53 am

I'm not sure if you want to interact with any women or genderqueer people, but you should be aware that we're not all "guys" here. But maybe with all your mens rights and catholic church stuff fuzzifying your brain, you have an odd sense of what human beings count as actual people with ideas and opinions worth sharing. And perhaps you're addressing the only people you wanted to address - "the guys," to talk about guy things.

If you are interested in interacting with any and all forum members, you could start by being more inclusive. Just a suggestion.
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Re: Hi guys

Postby Surgoshan » Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:01 am

Aloha, Noel!
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Re: Hi guys

Postby Noel819 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:44 pm

SubMor wrote:Hi Noel. In addition to the above, I would also add that if you want to get a better understanding of this place, take your time and read through the various threads in the Information and Answers subforum (after you finish the link basket material, of course). Also, leave whatever stereotypes you may have picked up from MRA sites at the door, thanks.

PS: Watson "stood up to" Dillahunty? For what, exactly? I can think of some nonsense Dawkins and Krauss have been involved in, but Dillahunty? I don't remember any interaction between the two of them.



Perhaps I got that one wrong, seems like it was this forum who stood up to Dillahunty and not specifically Watson, that is pretty cool though.
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Re: Hi guys

Postby Noel819 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:52 pm

Sun Countess wrote:I'm not sure if you want to interact with any women or genderqueer people, but you should be aware that we're not all "guys" here. But maybe with all your mens rights and catholic church stuff fuzzifying your brain, you have an odd sense of what human beings count as actual people with ideas and opinions worth sharing. And perhaps you're addressing the only people you wanted to address - "the guys," to talk about guy things.

If you are interested in interacting with any and all forum members, you could start by being more inclusive. Just a suggestion.



Where I live 'guys' is a term of endearment for a group of males or females, apologies if it offends. I dont think I can edit the title. I can assure you my brain isn't fuzzified though, at least I hope not.
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Re: Hi guys

Postby SubMor » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:23 pm

Noel819 wrote:Perhaps I got that one wrong, seems like it was this forum who stood up to Dillahunty and not specifically Watson, that is pretty cool though.

I remain confused. What exactly do you find cool? Was it the mere act of standing up to someone who I infer you dislike? Or was it that you agreed with the principle being defended (if you even know what it was)?
Noel819 wrote:I dont think I can edit the title.

Moderator notice

Probably not. I took the liberty of doing so just now.

Noel819 wrote:Where I live 'guys' is a term of endearment for a group of males or females

But not nonbinary folks? How curious. But seriously, the point is that "guys" is a gendered term. That doesn't disappear just because you use it to apply to non-men. Start saying "hi gals" every time you greet crowds, and see how that affects your social life. Let us know.

I'm sure you mean well, but please lurk more. Read read read.
Last edited by SubMor on Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hi guys

Postby Lovely » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:43 pm

Noel819 wrote:
Sun Countess wrote:I'm not sure if you want to interact with any women or genderqueer people, but you should be aware that we're not all "guys" here. But maybe with all your mens rights and catholic church stuff fuzzifying your brain, you have an odd sense of what human beings count as actual people with ideas and opinions worth sharing. And perhaps you're addressing the only people you wanted to address - "the guys," to talk about guy things.

If you are interested in interacting with any and all forum members, you could start by being more inclusive. Just a suggestion.



Where I live 'guys' is a term of endearment for a group of males or females, apologies if it offends. I dont think I can edit the title. I can assure you my brain isn't fuzzified though, at least I hope not.



This might be a first step to understanding the people here.

Why is "guys" allowed to be gender-neutral, and yet "gals" is not? Why is "man" ok to use for all of humanity, but "woman" is not? And where in all of that are genderqueer people supposed to fit?

This might seem like a minor thing to a lot of people. After all, "guys" has been a fairly neutral, casual term where I live for a long time now. But understanding why a societal norm may not ,in fact, be all that neutral is a key step to interacting on this site.

Step two is likely understanding why even if no offense is meant, how it can still easily be caused.
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Re: Hi all

Postby ischemgeek » Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:30 pm

Noel819, consider this: Modern style guides advise phrasing things with plural hypotheticals, and/or using singular they to avoid excluding people on basis of gender. Even the most conservative state that alternating male and female is more appropriate than using exclusively male pronouns. As little as 20 years ago, if you were referring to a hypothetical person, you were told to write "he". (edit: this is based on personal experience: 20 years ago, I was in first grade, and I was told by my teacher that I should use "he" if I don't know the gender of someone I'm writing about in one of those "write an action sentence" exercises for kids*/edit*).

Why is alternating male and female more appropriate than using male exclusively? Why is avoiding gendered pronouns entirely with plurals and/or singular they better still?

Simply put: using male exclusively assumes your audience is comprised solely of men, thus erasing the existence of any reader who is not a man. That should be a problem for anyone who accepts that women and non-binary folk deserve equal participation in our society. Using binary pronouns exclusively assumes your audience is comprised solely of people who fall in the gender binary. While less exclusive than using male pronouns, it's not exactly inclusive yet.
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Re: Hi all

Postby Noel819 » Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:38 pm

SubMor wrote:
Noel819 wrote:Perhaps I got that one wrong, seems like it was this forum who stood up to Dillahunty and not specifically Watson, that is pretty cool though.

I remain confused. What exactly do you find cool? Was it the mere act of standing up to someone who I infer you dislike? Or was it that you agreed with the principle being defended (if you even know what it was)?


I've seen Dillahunty debate 100s of people and as far as I know he has never really come across as second best. Yet on here he was torn apart in a short space of time. Similary with Dawkins, he has debated some great minds, i've never seen him lose apart from with Watson, I thought that was about as cool as it gets.

Noel819 wrote:Where I live 'guys' is a term of endearment for a group of males or females

But not nonbinary folks? How curious. But seriously, the point is that "guys" is a gendered term. That doesn't disappear just because you use it to apply to non-men. Start saying "hi gals" every time you greet crowds, and see how that affects your social life. Let us know.

I'm sure you mean well, but please lurk more. Read read read.

ischemgeek wrote:Noel819, consider this: Modern style guides advise phrasing things with plural hypotheticals, and/or using singular they to avoid excluding people on basis of gender. Even the most conservative state that alternating male and female is more appropriate than using exclusively male pronouns. As little as 20 years ago, if you were referring to a hypothetical person, you were told to write "he". (edit: this is based on personal experience: 20 years ago, I was in first grade, and I was told by my teacher that I should use "he" if I don't know the gender of someone I'm writing about in one of those "write an action sentence" exercises for kids*/edit*).

Why is alternating male and female more appropriate than using male exclusively? Why is avoiding gendered pronouns entirely with plurals and/or singular they better still?

Simply put: using male exclusively assumes your audience is comprised solely of men, thus erasing the existence of any reader who is not a man. That should be a problem for anyone who accepts that women and non-binary folk deserve equal participation in our society. Using binary pronouns exclusively assumes your audience is comprised solely of people who fall in the gender binary. While less exclusive than using male pronouns, it's not exactly inclusive yet.



Look guys/gals, if i'm being pulled up on how I speak on my first 2 words, I feel this forum is not for me. I feel like I am walking on eggshells.

Congrats on your work so far and I wish you all the best in the future.

Good luck
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Re: Hi all

Postby SubMor » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:16 pm

If you can't be arsed to listen to such incredibly mild criticism (and you obviously did not), you are absolutely correct that this forum is not for you.
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