Rhys Morgan wants us to "fuck off and die".

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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to "fuck off and die".

Postby LeftSidePositive » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:17 pm

julian wrote:I said criticism was a way to offer help. I know not all criticism is helpful and that adopting some philosophies can be detrimental to a cause.


So, I don't see how this is relevant to the fact that we seem to have been perfectly right to tell him to take his "criticism" and shove it. And, I do maintain he still had some "this is your problem..." attitude that made his refusal to actually contribute all the more problematic. I don't think anyone here necessarily rebuffs *any* criticism or doesn't, as a rule, see the value in it, but I think we were right to point out that what he was doing was concern-trolling and was doing more to hinder us than help.

What was being done. Explaining why his philosophy wasn't helpful, showing examples of how it failed or why it failed.


Sorry, I meant more along the lines of how could he have substantiated his claims more successfully so we could have assessed them. For this particular case, I still think "Here is this piece written correctly" is kind of necessary, because there are serious questions in my mind as to whether it could even be DONE, let alone done in a way that convinces people.
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to "fuck off and die".

Postby Brad Hudson » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:26 pm

LeftSidePositive wrote:But what if that criticism is total shit, not to mention stuff we've heard over and over again, and comes with no evidence that doing it his way will actually improve things? When it is, in fact, amply contradicted by what we have experienced in already trying to do things in accordance with the philosophy behind that criticism? When, in fact, our goals really only started to gain momentum and reach large numbers of people when we discarded the philosophy behind that criticism?


I'd be interested in reading something that discusses the process of discarding the philosophy and the results of discarding it. Are there any sources that immediately come to mind? (If not, I'm happy to dig myself.) :)
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to "fuck off and die".

Postby Mr.Samsa » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:18 am

Equality+ wrote:
Mr.Samsa wrote:Specifically, we need evidence that conceptualising strangers in a way that helps identify possible dangers that can occur in such situations has resulted in false accusations, and then we need to see that the frequency of these false accusations demonstrates a real problem.

The subject is why Rhys Morgan wants us to "fuck off and die", so the subject is how it could possibly be that some people could find Schroedinger's rapist sexist/offensive.


You made the implication that the principles of SR are relevant to the supposed case of false accusations. This is something you need to back up.

Equality+ wrote:You seem to be under the impression that advocating that people treat each other as though they could be rapists and telling people they should be considerate enough to assume others will think they might be rapists does not somehow imply the accusation that they might possibly be a rapist.


Nobody at all has advocated that we treat each other as though they could be rapists. Where are you getting that nonsense from?

Equality+ wrote:Lets try an experiment. Everyone do this, lets not be sexist. Start a post with "Hi, my name is [Insert Your Name Here] and I'm aware that everyone thinks I might be a rapist and I'm ok with that."
This IS what Schroedinger's rapist asks of people.


I don't see what relevance this has to SR. Are you sure you've actually read the essay?
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to "fuck off and die".

Postby LeftSidePositive » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:29 am

Brad Hudson wrote:
LeftSidePositive wrote:But what if that criticism is total shit, not to mention stuff we've heard over and over again, and comes with no evidence that doing it his way will actually improve things? When it is, in fact, amply contradicted by what we have experienced in already trying to do things in accordance with the philosophy behind that criticism? When, in fact, our goals really only started to gain momentum and reach large numbers of people when we discarded the philosophy behind that criticism?


I'd be interested in reading something that discusses the process of discarding the philosophy and the results of discarding it. Are there any sources that immediately come to mind? (If not, I'm happy to dig myself.) :)


I'm a big fan of MLK's "Letter from Birmingham Jail" about how to deal with those who say activists are being too, well, active.

Cipher also posted this one a bit earlier in the thread, but I think it merits another go. This has the more specifically feminist-activist bent.

On the other side of the discarding, there's Greta Christina's How Confrontationalism Can Open Doors, which gets into what you could call "results."

It's an interesting topic, but one that I don't know has been written about *that* much. I know for my part I've had situations where I tried to be very nice to someone and do all the "right" things you're supposed to do when criticizing them, and gotten a whole lot of righteous indignation for it. (Personal pet peeve: I don't buy into the idea that you can *only* criticize behavior since I do believe that our behavior does reflect on us as people, but even when I'm very careful to be circumspect and criticize the behavior and not the person, I invariably get the "are you calling me a such-and-such?!!?" And then whenever there's a post about internet arguing, wise people always talk about how it's sooo important to be careful only to criticize behavior, and I'm like "Oh, yeah? Do you wanna know what the success rate is on that?! Do you know how much THEY respect that distinction!?") Here's an early case where I cut my teeth, and it really did hit home for me just how pointless trying to frame everything "right" can be--I didn't even have that guy pegged as a troll! And the flipside is also true. I've told off people I thought were trolling and was not the least bit patient with them, and on more than a few occasions I've gotten very nice thank-yous and thoughtful responses when I really thought I was just performing for the peanut gallery because the person didn't seem persuadable at first.
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to "fuck off and die".

Postby Brad Hudson » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:59 am

Thanks! Good stuff there.

I agree about the overlap between person/behavior. It seems similar to having a discussion with a Christian that criticizes Christianity. As many times as one tries to distinguish between the the belief and the person, the person so heavily identifies with the belief that the criticism is taken personally.

I'm thinking there may be literature in the GBLT rights arena that discusses confrontational v. nonconfrontational tactics. Might be interesting to see.

The whole subject is one in which I have little personal experience, so I appreciate your willingness to share yours with me. My limited experience is that tone policing is so easy and so disempowering that making significant efforts to conform to some societal expectation of tone is a losing game. But that may be just my cynical side.

Thanks again.
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to "fuck off and die".

Postby LeftSidePositive » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:13 pm

I see that Rhys also found it necessary to call The Amazing Atheist a "right cunt".

Really, Rhys? That's the best you could do? Yes, you're right, TAA is an absolutely horrible person. No argument there. But when you were searching around in your skull for the one thing that would really put him in his place, that would really convey your true horror at his actions and his morals...you went with likening him to centuries of disgust at female genitalia?

You know, here I thought the problem with TAA and the people who drove Amanda Todd to suicide were the fact that they were viciously hostile to women and showed a shocking sense of satisfaction at seeing their fellow human beings hurt...all very substantive issues that aren't exactly communicated by "cunt."

And I know what you're going to say: "But I don't mean it like that!!" Yeah, sure, whatever. I know you just mean it to refer to the same type of bad people that your peers refer to with the word "cunt." In know that denigrating women simply for being women never consciously crossed your mind. I know that you think because something is normalized in your culture its previous connotations have disappeared. I know you think your use of the word is totally individual and not related to the cultural factors that make it such a potent insult. However, this is simply not the case. Your behavior incurs splash damage, and part of being an ethical person is trying to avoid that. Many smart, funny, awesome women feel alienated when you use words like that. Many women feel that having to tamp down their disgust at that word and all the memories it dredges up is not a worthwhile price to pay to engage with someone. Many women don't want to have to do the mental calculation in thinking "Is he going to turn out to be one of the people who uses that word and means it?" Many people, just like you, are sure that they don't mean anything at all against women when they say "cunt," either...and yet these people continue to talk over women without realizing it, devalue women's personal space without realizing it or caring, distrust women, subconsciously undervalue the competence of women, judge women's sexuality, etc., etc. Now, I don't know if you do these things (and in most cases the people who do them generally don't either--that's what makes it so insidious!)...but this is the context in which you speak when you say the word "cunt." There are also people who insist that of course they don't use "cunt" to denigrate women...but there are some women who are total cunts, amirite? There are people who will swear until they're blue in the face that they totally believe in equality, their hipster misogyny shouldn't be taken seriously, because it's just a joke, gaaawwd!, and it's just their "sexual preference" to hang out on r/creepshots. I know you can't stand those people, Rhys, but you don't always know who they are, and they will see you modeling behavior like using "cunt" and that will validate their attitudes.

So, really, is it just too damn hard to say "shithead" or "douchebag" or "motherfucking misogynistic wankstain"? Maybe you could consider this a spur for further creativity in your profanity repertoire...

Somehow this is particularly instructive to me as to why Rhys seems to have what struck me as a rather irrational hostility to A+. Yes, he has very good instincts about what is right in most cases. Yes, he generally wants to be a good person with regard to sexism in the atheist movement and a lot of other battles. But when it comes right down to it, the standards advocated by A+ would necessitate his modifying at least some of his behavior, and apparently while his good instincts have gotten him very far in being a good person, there is a certain commitment to rigorous self-reflection that appears to be lacking, and good-old-fashioned defensiveness is rearing its head. It just kicked in a little later than it did for Dawkins.
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to "fuck off and die".

Postby gaytality » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:34 pm

To be fair, that word carries different weight in places like the UK.
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to "fuck off and die".

Postby ateisten » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:42 pm

I agree with gaytality, british mentality takes so little notice of women that they have forgotten what the word cunt originally signified.
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to "fuck off and die".

Postby Catherine » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:48 pm

Not really it's just our swearwords are generally not quite as gendered here, dick is often used for men or women as is cunt. However bitch and bastard do tend to be gendered swearwords...
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to

Postby Pteryxx » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:52 pm

gaytality wrote:To be fair, that word carries different weight in places like the UK.


Then folks shouldn't be using it amongst a multinational community like Twitter. /shortanswer

---

Brad Hudson wrote: My limited experience is that tone policing is so easy and so disempowering that making significant efforts to conform to some societal expectation of tone is a losing game. But that may be just my cynical side.


It's not just you. Tone policing often is a silencing tactic, in that the societal expectation isn't even - the marginalized group are perceived as rude by default, along with unworthy by default, untrustworthy by default and so forth. Best Essay:

http://www.socialjusticeleague.net/2012 ... rsus-good/

Social justice is about destroying systematic marginalisation and privilege. Wishing to live in a more just, more equal world is simply not the same thing as wishing to live in a “nicer” world. I am not suggesting niceness is bad or that we should not behave in a nice way towards others if we want to! I also do not equate niceness with cooperation or collaboration with others. Here’s all I am saying: the conflation of ethical or just conduct (goodness), and polite conduct (niceness) is a big problem.

TW for example slurs [ Show ]
Plenty of oppressive bullshit goes down under the guise of nice. Every day, nice, caring, friendly people try to take our bodily autonomy away from us (women, queers, trans people, nonbinaries, fat people, POC…you name it, they just don’t think we know what’s good for us!). These people would hold a door for us if they saw us coming. Our enemies are not only the people holding “Fags Die God Laughs” signs, they are the nice people who just feel like marriage should be between a man and a woman, no offense, it’s just how they feel! We once got a very nice comment on this site that we decided we could not publish because its content was “But how can I respect women when they dress like – sorry to say it, pardon my language – sluts?”. This is vile, disgusting misogyny and no amount of sugar coating and politeness can make it okay. Similarly, most of the people who run ex-gay therapy clinics are actually very nice and polite! They just want to save you! Nicely! Clearly, niceness means FUCK ALL.
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to

Postby The Talking Stove » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:56 pm

gaytality wrote:To be fair, that word carries different weight in places like the UK.


Being from the UK, I don't buy this at all. It might not be the absolute taboo that it is in the U.S. but I don't see how it is magically divorced from being an insult based on the idea that female genitalia is horrible/shameful.
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to

Postby LeftSidePositive » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:59 pm

gaytality wrote:To be fair, that word carries different weight in places like the UK.


Yeah and the Dutch insist Zwarte Piet isn't racist...
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to

Postby ceepolk » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:59 pm

ateisten wrote:I agree with gaytality, british mentality takes so little notice of women that they have forgotten what the word cunt originally signified.


SNAP
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to

Postby julian » Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:09 pm

ateisten wrote:I agree with gaytality, british mentality takes so little notice of women that they have forgotten what the word cunt originally signified.


Word derivation doesn't seem like a good way to decide which words are acceptable and which aren't. History, usage, accepted meaning, implied meaning, all that works better in my opinion, anyway.
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to

Postby maiforpeace » Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:35 pm

ceepolk wrote:
ateisten wrote:I agree with gaytality, british mentality takes so little notice of women that they have forgotten what the word cunt originally signified.


SNAP


One of the nicest people I know, who isn't originally from the UK, but moved there, was rather mortified when he realized that he'd been calling people twats, not knowing exactly where it came from originally.
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to

Postby Eowyn Entwife » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:24 pm

maiforpeace wrote:
ceepolk wrote:
ateisten wrote:I agree with gaytality, british mentality takes so little notice of women that they have forgotten what the word cunt originally signified.


SNAP


One of the nicest people I know, who isn't originally from the UK, but moved there, was rather mortified when he realized that he'd been calling people twats, not knowing exactly where it came from originally.

This^^ Using gendered slurs can happen by mistake, until someone is decent enough to "translate" what it is that one really is saying/writing. The realization can be quite humiliating. For example, how many here have, as kids, been tricked by other kids to learn and use words/expression that made for Very Awkward Social Situations later? I know I was, which is why I tend to still be somewhat suspicious of new words and use the dictionary a lot - also urbandictionary.com, not just Merriam-Webster...

The chance to show one's quality begins when awareness of the meaning of a word/expression starts, IMO.
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to "fuck off and die".

Postby smhll » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:42 pm

Would it be fair for me to guess that anyone with any "prominence" in movement atheism is getting lots of email and tweets asking them to take a stand on the A+ "controversy"? And can I say that for anyone who is on very friendly terms with some people on both sides of the issue, taking a stand will have a cost. (I'm just assuming that Matt Dillahunty, Al Stefanelli, Natalie Reed, Rhys Morgan and someone else whose name I forgot are probably getting lots of mail on this topic, not all of it nice. Thus, it's somewhat understandable if they have become (temporarily) aggravated and more than tired of the topic.

(I am not agreeing with the stances of all of these people, and Al S. was especially grouchy in the comments on his last post of FtB. I just think there is so much heat, smoke, distortions and crap flying around this issue that a reflexive desire to delete ones Twitter account would make sense to me, and I can relate to anyone who feels that way.)
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to "fuck off and die".

Postby Kassiane » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:13 pm

It just occurred to me that the "omg SR wants men to acknowledge that they're maybe seen as rapists!" misreading is yet another centering of men.

Cuz doods, it isn't really about you at all, given that it's about women's behavior. It says absolutely not a damn thing about men.
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to "fuck off and die".

Postby ceepolk » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:25 pm

even when it isn't about men
it's actually about men.
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to "fuck off and die".

Postby ArgyleRoad » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:27 pm

The whole world is about penises, didn't you know? Just look at the pope's hat!
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to "fuck off and die".

Postby Setar » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:58 pm

"...authoritarian followers feel empowered to isolate and segregate, to humiliate, to persecute, to beat, and to kill in the middle of the night, because in their heads they can almost hear the loudspeakers announcing, “Now batting for God’s team, his designated hitter, (their name).”" -Bob Altemeyer, The Authoritarians
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to "fuck off and die".

Postby StyxMaker » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:29 am

I was introduced to SR several months ago, long before I'd ever heard of A+. I found it to be a very reasonable and enlightening concept. Unfortunately, since the vast majority of rapists are men and the vast majority of those who are raped are women, I am not insulted that a woman I have never met might consider me to be a potential rapist. If we have the opportunity to become better acquainted I hope that I would be, over time, moved out of that category.

I also recognize that, since a large percentage of rapes are committed by 'friends' and even family members of the victim, it may take awhile for any woman to move me completely out of the 'potential' rapist category.

I don't worry about, nor am I insulted by potential identifications. Every person I've met has potentially been almost anything. I would view a man's reaction to being told that he might be viewed, by a woman he has never met before, as being a 'potential rapist' to reveal more about himself, and our society, than it does about the women he's meeting.
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to "fuck off and die".

Postby StyxMaker » Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:08 am

Yallery Brown wrote:
thecynicalromantic wrote: You can deal with this like an adult or you can complain that the strangers you are bugging aren't being faaaaaaair, but bagging on women for being tired of street harassment because it makes hitting on them harder for you makes you a grade-A asshole.


Weird - the phenomenon of men being indignant at a rebuff doesn't look like a phenomenon I've advocated.

In fact, the right of girls to turn the cold shoulder looks like a phenomenon I've suggested was acceptable. Understandable. "She is entitled to her opinion" and such.

Next you'll be telling me that the guys who pull up in their cars when I'm walking someplace and offer me a ride are totally just being helpful and I should definitely get in the car with them. You know, because statistics.


Nope - just can't see how this has anything to do with anything I've said. If you don't want to jump in strange cars do not.


Assuming that you make a habit of talking to women you don't know on trains and other such confined spaces, and that you are one of the men who actually does react in a non threatening way when you are rebuffed, why would you expect a women, who doesn't know you and has, like a lot of women, been in rather scary situations with men in these environments, to assume that you are not a potential rapist/sexual predator or even just a mugger or a thief?
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to "fuck off and die".

Postby StyxMaker » Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:10 am

Equality+ wrote:I don't have any problem with Rhys's reaction. It shows a person who hates rape and is genuinely not sexist (getting angry when an accusation targets one sex instead of everyone equally).


Also remember that falsely being accused of crimes, especially rape, has ended people's careers, business and lives.


I would suggest that the time to worry about 'false rape accusation' is when they out number unreported rapes.
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Re: Rhys Morgan wants us to

Postby LeftSidePositive » Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:54 am

StyxMaker wrote:I would view a man's reaction to being told that he might be viewed, by a woman he has never met before, as being a 'potential rapist' to reveal more about himself, and our society, than it does about the women he's meeting.


Well said! And welcome to A+!
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