future of online feminism, Apr 8

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future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby AlexSeanchai » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:09 pm

Feministing has an article about a paper on online feminism that two former Feministing contributors are publishing on the 8th. They're suggesting we take to Twitter (and presumably other social media) to talk about what online feminism means to us. (Quite a lot to people on this forum, I imagine.) I thought I'd boost the signal.
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby ceepolk » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:46 pm

#femfuture is the tag to watch... I wonder if this could do with a block bot service?
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby Setar » Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:26 am

it had better address the "abolitionist" crap that's all over the damned place, and not in a way that tries to affirm it.
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby AlexSeanchai » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:46 pm

I am not sure if I have seen this, Setar--could you elucidate?
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby Setar » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:53 pm

Anti-sex work 'feminists', Ellie. You know, the ones who go on about how all sex work is automatically exploiting women because patriarchy (and never mind, of course, male or trans* prostitutes). They call themselves "abolitionists" -- and throw amazing tantrums when you point out their puritanical premise by calling them "sex-negative".
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby Zeitgueist » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:17 pm

It should be noted that much of sex work is exploiting women because many sex workers had little choice in joining their profession, and/or are stuck in abusive arrangements, especially in locations where such work is underground. It becomes problematic when you say ALL sex work is exploitative.
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby Setar » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:25 pm

Zeitgueist wrote:It should be noted that much of sex work is exploiting women because many sex workers had little choice in joining their profession, and/or are stuck in abusive arrangements, especially in locations where such work is underground. It becomes problematic when you say ALL sex work is exploitative.

Which is...exactly what "abolitionists" do. they want to abolish sex work and prostitution. they treat it like it only exists because patriarchy, and all women in it need to be 'rescued'. and only women -- abolitionists rarely, if ever, acknowledge the existence of male and trans* sex workers. and they're a big, huge thing in mainstream feminism, likely because it's really fucking easy to throw sex workers under the bus for "respectability".

and the policies that "abolitionists" push, like 'end demand', make things worse for sex workers, because the focus is on stigmatizing and getting rid of sex work -- which makes it a hell of a lot easier for people who abuse sex workers to get away with it.
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby AlexSeanchai » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:32 pm

Huh. I had only ever heard 'abolitionist' to refer to opposing the sort of slavery that went away in the US after the Civil War.

But I am plotting something for Apr 8 anyway, and I promise I'll address people who oppose all sex work in the name of opposing exploitative sex work.
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby Setar » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:44 pm

EllieMurasaki wrote:But I am plotting something for Apr 8 anyway, and I promise I'll address people who oppose all sex work in the name of opposing exploitative sex work.

thank you. the problems with sex work do exist, but they're waaay more because of patriarchy and the stigmatization of sex work, than sex work itself being bad.

also, from what I've seen, anti-sex work tends to overlap with TERFyness, which is why I'm saying this is about throwing even more marginalized groups under the bus in order to preserve "respectability" for all the well-off cis (white) feminists.
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby Xzenu » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:02 pm

EllieMurasaki wrote:Huh. I had only ever heard 'abolitionist' to refer to opposing the sort of slavery that went away in the US after the Civil War.


Yeah, me too. I have encountered feminists who are bigoted against sex-workers, but I have never before heard them try to claim that title for themselves.

Equaling sex-work with slavery is deeply abhorrent and creepy at two levels.

1. It invisibilizes non-sexual slavery. One university lecture I attended said that 90% of all human slavery trafficking is non-sexual. Trying to move the definition to sex benefit only those who directly or indirectly own slaves for non-sexual exploitation.

2. It deeply disqualifies and infantilizes all sex-workers who are NOT slaves. As in...

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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby Xzenu » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:16 pm

Setar wrote:also, from what I've seen, anti-sex work tends to overlap with TERFyness, which is why I'm saying this is about throwing even more marginalized groups under the bus in order to preserve "respectability" for all the well-off cis (white) feminists.


What does "TERF" mean?

Anyway, I agree that sacrificing others for the sake of respectability can be part of it. But in my experience, it's mostly a case of pure bigotry rather than strategic pretense bigotry. The ones I have encountered seem to HATE sex-workers, trans people, BDSM people, and so on. With a passion.

Sure they "feel sorry" for these people... so sorry that some of them would put them to sleep like wounded animals, given the chance. In the eyes of these dogmatic ideologues, a woman is not really human if she sell sexual services, was born with a penis, or is into BDSM. Nothing more than a brain-damaged animal, in their bigoted eyes.

They have this monolithic vision of "The Woman". Anything that transgresses the boundaries is a personal threat to their very world, built entirely on symbols as it is.
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby AlexSeanchai » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:18 pm

Query: I'm not sure exactly how I'd define the term 'wage slave', but people whose only choices are no income or insufficient income hand in hand with severe exploitation would seem to qualify. (So a significant fraction of everyone, if not just about everyone, who's employed at less than the local living wage.) Is that an acceptable term? Or is it not actual slavery, and the comparison between low-wage workers (however low the wage) and actual slavery is another thing that (as you say) invisibilizes nonsexual slavery, and therefore I should not use the term?

TERF = trans-exclusionary radical feminist
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby emptyell » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:53 am

EllieMurasaki wrote:Query: I'm not sure exactly how I'd define the term 'wage slave', but people whose only choices are no income or insufficient income hand in hand with severe exploitation would seem to qualify. (So a significant fraction of everyone, if not just about everyone, who's employed at less than the local living wage.) Is that an acceptable term? Or is it not actual slavery, and the comparison between low-wage workers (however low the wage) and actual slavery is another thing that (as you say) invisibilizes nonsexual slavery, and therefore I should not use the term?

TERF = trans-exclusionary radical feminist


May I suggest that the fifty shades of slavery deserves its own topic? This strikes me as a very complex and fraught topic.
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby Eowyn Entwife » Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:40 am

emptyell wrote:May I suggest that the fifty shades of slavery deserves its own topic? This strikes me as a very complex and fraught topic.

Hear, hear!
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby emptyell » Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:48 am

Eowyn Entwife wrote:
emptyell wrote:May I suggest that the fifty shades of slavery deserves its own topic? This strikes me as a very complex and fraught topic.

Hear, hear!


Should we call it that? A part of me likes the nuance and innuendo. Another part feels like it may be a bit glib and trivializing.
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby Anon275 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:58 pm

This is my innocent expression for Just Asking Questions! I assure you that they are original and new and utterly sincere [ Show ]
Why is online feminism a thing? A lot of time it seems to be feminists getting angry over trolls saying something to them.

***URL redacted***

Moderator notice

and that's why you got run, chum.
Last edited by ceepolk on Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby AlexSeanchai » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:19 pm

Things I have learned from #onlinefeminism: an inexhaustive list.

Going directly to the entry will not show you the cut text. The cut text says "I made myself stop at five hundred words; this topic is good for fifty thousand".
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby Hamilton » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:48 pm

conflation of sex work and slavery [ Show ]
Anti-sex work 'feminists', Ellie. You know, the ones who go on about how all sex work is automatically exploiting women because patriarchy (and never mind, of course, male or trans* prostitutes). They call themselves "abolitionists" -- and throw amazing tantrums when you point out their puritanical premise by calling them "sex-negative".


Um, the vast majority of sex workers, regardless of their sex, are glorified slaves. You can say that the way we try to deal with the industry is counter productive, and I'd agree with you, and you can suggest better ways of dealing with the situation, and I'd probably agree with you on that too, but acting like sex work is somehow much different than slavery is bizarre to me.

Equaling sex-work with slavery is deeply abhorrent and creepy at two levels


Like the fact that the majority of sex workers are glorified slaves, even if the majority of slaves are not sex slaves?
Last edited by ischemgeek on Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: hiddentexting problematic stuff
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby AndyTheNerd » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:55 pm

Really hoping we're not having a conversation about sex workers without sex workers.
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby Onamission5 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:10 pm

That is some serious bullshit you just wrote, Hamilton. Denying sex workers their agency? Not okay.
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby Hamilton » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:17 pm

Wait, what?
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby Onamission5 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:40 pm

derail on sex work [ Show ]
You equated all sex work with slavery, completely ignoring the fact that there is such a thing as consensual, voluntary and even enthusiastic sex work, denying the agency of people who choose their occupations as sex workers. Surely you can see why that is highly problematic. There are sex workers and former sex workers who are members on this board. Are you saying that you know better than them about the details of their own lives than they do? 'Cause it seems like you are.

A list of starter resources:
http://www.desireealliance.org/resources.htm

Not written by a sex worker but decent article IMO:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/danah-boy ... 84382.html

Another article on why it is problematic to lump all sex work together:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... emand-myth

More by the same author:
http://rhrealitycheck.org/author/melissa-gira-grant/
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby ischemgeek » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:41 pm

There is a difference between sex workers and sex slaves, Hamilton. Equating the two denies the agency of sex workers.
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby Hamilton » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:31 pm

You equated all sex work with slavery


No, I did not. That you apparently have poor reading comprehension is not my fault.
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Re: future of online feminism, Apr 8

Postby Flewellyn » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:37 pm

Moderator notice

Hamilton, back off.

You made a mistake. You've been called on it. If you have a substantive rebuttal to make, make it, but do not simply snipe back.
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