"Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

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"Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby Setar » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:59 am

Jezebel: Muslim Women Shockingly Not Grateful for Topless European Ladies Trying To ‘Save’ Them

tw racist statements [ Show ]
While it is unquestionably necessary, brave, and noble to stand with Amina (who is reportedly not free to move or speak safely), the protests were distressingly and distractingly Islamophobic. A photo from one of shows a white woman with crescent moons covering her nipples, wearing a fake beard, a unibrow penciled in with eyeliner, and a bath towel on her head. Another photo, highlighted on FEMEN's Facebook page is of a topless woman protesting at a mosque in San Francisco (because, when you're fighting the good fight of "TITS AGAINST ISLAMISM," standing topless in front of any mosque anywhere will do) with the following caption:
TODAY IS AMINA TOPLESS JIHAD DAY. I was at the Islamic Mosque in San Francisco. Some Arab guy tried to grab my sign and pushed me in a violent way. My friend stopped him. MY BODY IS MY TEMPLE.


Further down is a cartoon of a woman crawling out from under her burqa to light on fire the beard of a caricature of a Muslim man (or should I say "some Arab guy"?). In the comments, a woman posted a link to an Al Jazeera article about Muslim women counter-protesting the protest, as they rightfully feel that it was condescending and imperialistic in both tone and intent. FEMEN fans responded to her link in the following ways:
"Stupid muslim women. Made brainless by Quran."


"Stupid slaves!"


You know that there's something wrong with your protest when its ardent supporters find it appropriate to repeatedly call the women they are "saving" stupid and to affirm that they have no capacity for making decisions of their own.


Yeeeaaaah...we're getting that problem again, where people assume Radical Islamism == all Islam.

and in addition to that, I'm also reading shit about FEMEN apparently supporting "the introduction of criminal responsibility for the use of sex industry services", aka Swedish Model.

so I'm just sitting here again, going "way to go middle-class feminists, shoving everyone else under the bus for 'respectability'". -sigh-
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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby SubMor » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:01 pm

I'll just be over here eyerolling at the "Islamophobia isn't racism" cliche that I keep seeing everywhere.

No, it isn't racism—it incorporates racism. Essentially, it is racist without being racism. Gosh, if only we had some way to think about that sort of thing that didn't rely on oversimplifications... (Spoiler alert)
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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby Xzenu » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:45 pm

SubMor wrote:I'll just be over here eyerolling at the "Islamophobia isn't racism" cliche that I keep seeing everywhere.

No, it isn't racism—it incorporates racism. Essentially, it is racist without being racism. Gosh, if only we had some way to think about that sort of thing that didn't rely on oversimplifications... (Spoiler alert)


Well, the word racism has two very different definition.

* The normal definition, which is "categorism focused on race".
* The extended definition, which is "categorism, no matter what category or categorization of people is being focused on".

This extended definition of the word is confusing and counter-intuitive. And it give people room for dismissing the whole problem through wordplay, just like you describe. Still, it is somewhat popular. Because we need a word for the phenomenon categorism, and the word itself isn't very wide-spread yet.

My blog and youtube channel are both mostly about categorism. See for example the video about transphobia. or the transcript.

Quoting the transcript wrote:Another such “ism” word I often use is Categorism. At the core, Transphobia, Misogyny, Homophobia, and Paraphobia are all the same thing. The same thing as each other, and the same thing as Racism and Sexism. They are different focuses of this same phenomenon: They are prejudice, discrimination, bigotry, marginalization, dichotomism, and so on against a certain category of people, or based on a certain categorization of people. In these cases against the categories trans people, women, homosexuals and other sexual minorities respectively. Or, in the case of racism and sexism, based on the categorization of race and gender respectively.


Back to the imperialistic tendencies of some protestors, I really despise the mentality of "you don't understand anything about yourself, so out of our pure goodness and charity towards you we will inform everyone that you are stupid. Don't forget to be grateful that we take the time to look down upon the pitiful little you."

If a group that has this mentality about female Muslims also have it about female sex-workers, it's saddening but hardly surprising. (Yes, "female sex-workers", not "sex-workers". Because they constantly invisibilize the male sex-workers, pretending that they don't exist. At least here in Sweden, but I assume the discourse is similar elsewhere.)
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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby Xzenu » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:12 pm

Setar wrote:Yeeeaaaah...we're getting that problem again, where people assume Radical Islamism == all Islam.


Yeah, that.
Along with the Muslim=Islam fallacy.

As in...

Muslim = a person who has Islam as a spiritual belief and/or a social/cultural community.
Islam = A religion - and thus an abstract concept, just like all other religions and ideologies.

Muslims and other religious people are human beings with human rights.
Islam and other religions/faiths/beliefs (including Atheism) are abstract concepts, not human beings with human rights.

It is dehumanizing to see Muslims as "Islam" rather than as "people who believe in Islam". I believe that this dehumanization is a very big part in why islamophobia (or antimuslimism, as I very much prefer to call it!) has ben able to spread so much in this last decade.
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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby Setar » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:29 pm

Xzenu wrote:(Yes, "female sex-workers", not "sex-workers". Because they constantly invisibilize the male sex-workers, pretending that they don't exist. At least here in Sweden, but I assume the discourse is similar elsewhere.)

they also pretend trans* sex workers don't exist; in fact, there seems to be a lot of overlap between anti-sex work and being a TERF (trans-exclusionary radfem, aka "radscum"). and TERFs are fucking horrible, they have this whole bullshit about how trans* women are just men in disguise trying to rape women or something. most women's shelters flat out won't accept trans* women because they're run by TERFs.
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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby Xzenu » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:27 pm

Setar wrote:in fact, there seems to be a lot of overlap between anti-sex work and being a TERF (trans-exclusionary radfem, aka "radscum"). and TERFs are fucking horrible, they have this whole bullshit about how trans* women are just men in disguise trying to rape women or something.


Well, yeah.
The problem with logic is the fact that "Garbage in equals garbage out".
I mean, when someone base their worldview on some bullshit hardcoded axioms... the results will be bullshit. Destructive bullshit.

Radical feminism (as an academical discipline, or as a political ideology) relies entirely on a dichotomy between "man" and "woman", two categories that is defined as entirely monolithic. Monolithization and dichotomism... bleah. :x

Therefore, radical feminists are insulted by the existence of trans people and sex workers in the same way as radical Muslims and Christians are insulted by the existence of Atheists: It is a very real threat to the world of symbols they choose to live in instead of the actual world.

(While there may still be people who don't hold this worldview but call themselves radical feminists anyway... in my experience, it's getting rarer and rarer. The reasonable people are moving on to queer feminism et cetera, giving the bigots even more monopoly on the label radfem.)
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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby qmartindale » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:40 pm

Amina has allegedly been committed to a psychiatric hospital by her parents. Adel Almi, president of a Tunisian sharia advocacy group, has called for her to be whipped or even stoned to death. Acting in solidarity with her, and condemning those who call for violence against her isn't racist. Calling out people doing racist things in that name is appropriate, but saying the movement itself is racist or that it's Europeans trying to save Muslim women against their will ignores Amina's agency. Remember that she reached out to FEMEN in the first place, and she has done nothing to warrant the violent threats she's received.

Maryam Namazie on the subject: "You just don’t get it!"
"Our day to defend amina"

ETA: fixed grammar
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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby ceepolk » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:14 pm

Xzenu wrote:
SubMor wrote:I'll just be over here eyerolling at the "Islamophobia isn't racism" cliche that I keep seeing everywhere.

No, it isn't racism—it incorporates racism. Essentially, it is racist without being racism. Gosh, if only we had some way to think about that sort of thing that didn't rely on oversimplifications... (Spoiler alert)


Well, the word racism has two very different definition.

* The normal definition, which is "categorism focused on race".
* The extended definition, which is "categorism, no matter what category or categorization of people is being focused on".

This extended definition of the word is confusing and counter-intuitive. And it give people room for dismissing the whole problem through wordplay, just like you describe. Still, it is somewhat popular. Because we need a word for the phenomenon categorism, and the word itself isn't very wide-spread yet.


I have never heard of your second "extended" definition before today, so i'm pretty confused. Can you explain a bit more?

But when you are reading a post on this forum, and you see the word racism, the default definition here is the sociological definition of racism, not the common colloquial error of racism=bigotry. And when you catch someone here trying to use racism as a synonym for bigotry, you will be helping when you point that out to them. it's never just another word for bigotry here. bigotry is bigotry. racism is the actions, beliefs, and cultural behaviors that teaches and supports the notion that distinct groups of humans known as races are unequal in ability and worthiness, and by some weird coincidence one group in particular has all of the advantages, while other groups do not share as many of the same advantages. we're surrounded by racism just like we're surrounded by the patriarchy.
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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby Xzenu » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:15 pm

qmartindale wrote:Amina has allegedly been committed to a psychiatric hospital by her parents. Adel Almi, president of a Tunisian sharia advocacy group, has called for to be whipped or even stoned to death.


Yes. And protesting against this, AS LONG AS IT'S DONE IN A GOOD WAY, is a good thing.

qmartindale wrote:Acting in solidarity with her, and condemning those who call for violence against her isn't racist.


Did anyone suggest that it was?

qmartindale wrote:Calling out people doing racist things in that name is appropriate,


Yep, and that's the point of this thread and the article it links. Right?

qmartindale wrote:but saying the movement itself is racist


Did anyone ever suggest that? As you point out, and we are hopefully all aware of, Amina joined FEMEN herself.

qmartindale wrote:or that it's European trying to save Muslim women against their will ignores Amina's agency.


Well, you do have a point that we need to be careful to not give the impression that we think that about protesting as such.

Bottom line...

* Direct your protests to the embassies, not to random mosques or Muslim families.
* Please keep your messages constructive. Abstain from "we hate arabs" symbol language.
* If you want to communicate that all religions sucks, this is probably not the time and the place. Oh, and if you want to communicate that Christianity is the good/respectable religion and Islam the evil/worthless one... please get lost.
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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby Xzenu » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:25 pm

ceepolk wrote:I have never heard of your second "extended" definition before today, so i'm pretty confused. Can you explain a bit more?


I have many times heard the word racism used about other things than race. For example, people who have not heard the word ageism (or don't expect their audience to have heard it) calling it "age racism", "racism based on age", or simply call it "racism" and let the rest be indirectly explained by the context.

ceepolk wrote:But when you are reading a post on this forum, and you see the word racism, the default definition here is the sociological definition of racism, not the common colloquial error of racism=bigotry.


The definition of racism I use is that it is a concept that includes prejudice, discrimination, bigotry, marginalization, kyriarchal power structures, and other related phenomena, targeting people based on the social construction of race. In other words, racism has many different faces, not just one.
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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby ceepolk » Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:00 am

And that doesn't change the fact that the definition used *here* is the one that I just described to you.
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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby qmartindale » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:05 pm

Xzenu wrote:Yes. And protesting against this, AS LONG AS IT'S DONE IN A GOOD WAY, is a good thing.


So I think we agree on a lot, we're just emphasizing different aspects (I'd say protesting against this IS A GOOD THING, as long as it's not done in a racist way). I think the article and the thread title are too close to condemning the entire protest as racist or imperialist rather than calling out specific racist actions. I also disagree that this a bad time to be protesting religion in general, given Amina's original protest.
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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby rickymooston » Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:00 am

Setar wrote:Jezebel: Muslim Women Shockingly Not Grateful for Topless European Ladies Trying To ‘Save’ Them

tw racist statements [ Show ]
While it is unquestionably necessary, brave, and noble to stand with Amina (who is reportedly not free to move or speak safely), the protests were distressingly and distractingly Islamophobic. A photo from one of shows a white woman with crescent moons covering her nipples, wearing a fake beard, a unibrow penciled in with eyeliner, and a bath towel on her head. Another photo, highlighted on FEMEN's Facebook page is of a topless woman protesting at a mosque in San Francisco (because, when you're fighting the good fight of "TITS AGAINST ISLAMISM," standing topless in front of any mosque anywhere will do) with the following caption:
TODAY IS AMINA TOPLESS JIHAD DAY. I was at the Islamic Mosque in San Francisco. Some Arab guy tried to grab my sign and pushed me in a violent way. My friend stopped him. MY BODY IS MY TEMPLE.


Further down is a cartoon of a woman crawling out from under her burqa to light on fire the beard of a caricature of a Muslim man (or should I say "some Arab guy"?). In the comments, a woman posted a link to an Al Jazeera article about Muslim women counter-protesting the protest, as they rightfully feel that it was condescending and imperialistic in both tone and intent. FEMEN fans responded to her link in the following ways:
"Stupid muslim women. Made brainless by Quran."


"Stupid slaves!"


You know that there's something wrong with your protest when its ardent supporters find it appropriate to repeatedly call the women they are "saving" stupid and to affirm that they have no capacity for making decisions of their own.


Yeeeaaaah...we're getting that problem again, where people assume Radical Islamism == all Islam.

and in addition to that, I'm also reading shit about FEMEN apparently supporting "the introduction of criminal responsibility for the use of sex industry services", aka Swedish Model.

so I'm just sitting here again, going "way to go middle-class feminists, shoving everyone else under the bus for 'respectability'". -sigh-


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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby Xzenu » Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:26 pm

qmartindale wrote:So I think we agree on a lot, we're just emphasizing different aspects (I'd say protesting against this IS A GOOD THING, as long as it's not done in a racist way).


Yup. And it's good to have different people emphasizing different aspects, so that all aspects that need emphasis can get some of that. :)
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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby GaiusIuliusTaberna » Mon May 06, 2013 8:20 pm

I'm going to regret this but... http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/04 ... 83803.html

we shouldn't be so quick to demonize criticism of Islam as racist, I mean, after all, Islam is a religion not an ethnicity. I take my cues on what is and is not ok from liberal and progressive Muslims, not the most conservative ones.
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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby SubMor » Tue May 07, 2013 3:55 pm

Criticising Islam isn't inherently racist, and odds are good that you're misrepresenting anyone who isn't an Islamist and uses the word "Islamophobic" by suggesting otherwise. Many different religions exist under the Islam label, so criticisms of Islam that rely on the presupposition that it is a monolith are inherently bullshit. That bullshit is often influenced by the fact that many Muslims* are people of color. That makes Islamophobia racist without being just racism.

In-ter-sec-tions.

* [ Show ]
I don't have data, but I maintain my suspicion that the vast majority of people who are portrayed in popular media and on the news as being Muslim are brown people.
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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby Xzenu » Wed May 08, 2013 9:05 am

GaiusIuliusTaberna wrote:we shouldn't be so quick to demonize criticism of Islam as racist, I mean, after all, Islam is a religion not an ethnicity. I take my cues on what is and is not ok from liberal and progressive Muslims, not the most conservative ones.


It shouldn't be about whether it should be okay to criticize or not, it should be about what terms for criticism are decent.

Criticism is problematic, but so is tolerance and acceptance. What do you tolerate, what do you accept? On who's terms, an who's expense?

I prefer to make a distinction between cultural skepticism, cultural apologism an cultural chauvinism.

Cultural skepticism consider all cultures problematic, including one's own: Acknowledging that we all carry our own sets of prejudices with us and that we all need to work on that. Basic assumptions are that we all are human beings with human rights. We need to respect each other as humans, and stand up to each other's rights. We should not regard ourselves or each other as property of any culture or religion, but we should also remember that none of us automatically understand any other person's situation.

Cultural apologism an cultural chauvinism on the other hand, see people of other cultures as different an inferior from us. For example, they can see people from countries with an Islamic cultural heritage as being "The Muslim" in a monolithic sense. And they can see this "The Muslim" as inherently inclined to abuse "his" women as well as gay people and atheists. The difference between the apologetic and the chauvinist is that fine print details of how they think we should view this monolithic Muslim.

The cultural apologetic explains that we must embrace diversity and understand that "The Muslim" is different from us. To abuse people and to deny them their rights, that's simply who he is, and we just need to live with that. Of course we shouldn't let him beat or rape or kill any WHITE women, any white atheists or any white gays. But as long as he only do it to brown women, brown atheists and brown gays, that's his own business. The idea is that we are white and western. Therefore we should only defend the human rights of white women, white atheists and white gays. What happens to people who are not white is none of our business as long as WE are not the ones doing the beating, raping and killing. And thus, we can pretend that our cultural apologetic stance isn't racist. We can even pretend that we are being "respectful" rather than simply taking the most convenient route to having our cake and eating it too.

The cultural chauvinist, however, follow the cultural apologism to its inevitable conclusion. The conclusion that "The Muslim" is disgusting and that we should not have anything to do with him. Close the borders to all those brown people. Including brown women, brown atheists, brown gay people, and all those brown heterosexual men who identify as Muslims without conforming to any of the stereotypes that hardline Islamists as well as the chauvinists and apologists of the West are trying to hard to push on them.
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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby qmartindale » Wed May 08, 2013 12:38 pm

The problem is any form of criticism that treats any person as part of a monolithic other.
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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby Xzenu » Wed May 08, 2013 7:45 pm

qmartindale wrote:The problem is any form of criticism that treats any person as part of a monolithic other.


Yup. Working on a youtube speech about that now.
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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby GaiusIuliusTaberna » Thu May 09, 2013 4:03 am

SubMor wrote:Criticising Islam isn't inherently racist, and odds are good that you're misrepresenting anyone who isn't an Islamist and uses the word "Islamophobic" by suggesting otherwise. Many different religions exist under the Islam label, so criticisms of Islam that rely on the presupposition that it is a monolith are inherently bullshit. That bullshit is often influenced by the fact that many Muslims* are people of color. That makes Islamophobia racist without being just racism.


You are right, there are a lot of sects within islam. The two major ones being the Sunni orthodoxy and the Shiite sect. Each have their own extremist wing, you have the wahhabists on the one hand, and the Iranian theocracy on the other. When they aren't killing each other they are both quite hostile to the west, and this is key, because of theological grievances. Its often said of them that they are like the west borough baptist church of Islam, and this I would agree is true, but I draw a different implication from it. Most Christians abhor the WBC, but in American slightly more than half of them are homophobic to some degree. That's a problem, and it seems self evident that this movement has a very positive message on that. But carrying the analogy over how many devout Muslims share similar mildly toxic beliefs motivated by their faith?

SubMor wrote:In-ter-sec-tions.

* [ Show ]
I don't have data, but I maintain my suspicion that the vast majority of people who are portrayed in popular media and on the news as being Muslim are brown people.


Of course, the media feeds the existing racial stereotypes prevalent in society. A lot of people don't know that there are Chinese, central European, Balkan, and south east Asian Muslims, never mind white western raised converts. However, I don't follow the media. if I did, well I probably wouldn't know so much about Femen, never mind Amina. Lets not lose sight of that, if half of what the article I linked is accurate I think its fair to say Femen is vindicated in this instance. Furthermore I would like to draw a sharp contrast here between the kind of racist xenophobic you are talking about, and a legitimate conversation about what Islam the religion actually recommends, how that is interpreted by various schools of thought, and to what extent we must combat it, in the same way that we do Christianity.

I have yet to see compelling evidence that Femen has actually been in any sense racist, they are very anti islam, but that is natural, like me they are anti theists, and Islam is a form of theism. You can hardly accuse them of only attacking Islam when their claim to fame was cutting down a cross in the Ukraine. On the contrary their concern for their sisters is inspiring to me, and I applaud their contempt of religious morals and enforced gender roles. As a result I am bothered when they are accused of being racist, I expect that from islamists, but not from fellow atheists. They are our comrades and we should show some solidarity.
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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby GaiusIuliusTaberna » Thu May 09, 2013 4:11 am

qmartindale wrote:The problem is any form of criticism that treats any person as part of a monolithic other.



Would you say criticize catholicism is equivalent to treating all Catholics as a monolithic representation of the church? Its easy enough to say that the vow of celibacy may have contributed to the sex abuse, but its quite another thing to say that all catholics are child molesters. Likewise the history of islamic conquest and the record of it in the hadith are bound to fuel the ambitions of warloards and fundamentalists, pointing that out should not in any way shape or form imply that all Muslims warlords and fundamentalists.

I would further raise another point for you to consider, is it better that the only people criticizing islam are racist xenophobic conservatives? Do we really want them dictating the course of that discourse? Certainly the many secularists in the islamic world are bound to be turned off by such people when they might easily join with us.

That's my take on it.
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Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby ceepolk » Thu May 09, 2013 8:07 am

...I notice that people are protesting my point about Islam being a religion of mostly brown people by bringing up Indonesia and muslims of east Asian origin.

This is called colorism or sometimes shadeism and it's about elevating light skinned people of color above dark skinned ones.

This is a racist practice. Please stop trying to use it as an argument.

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Re:

Postby Xzenu » Thu May 09, 2013 9:59 am

ceepolk wrote:...I notice that people are protesting my point about Islam being a religion of mostly brown people by bringing up Indonesia and muslims of east Asian origin.

This is called colorism or sometimes shadeism and it's about elevating light skinned people of color above dark skinned ones.

This is a racist practice. Please stop trying to use it as an argument.


Huh?
What... the... :shock:

Kinda deraily [ Show ]
1. You are the only one who has mentioned Indonesia in this thread, I just made a search.

2. In other threads, I have mentioned Indonesia several times - and that's because I live there! Or rather, I lived there when I joined this community. I have recently moved back to Sweden.

3. I haven't seen anyone else on this forum mentioning Indonesia. Ever. As far as I know, I'm the only one here with any connection to the country you choose to single out. Your way of mentioning Indonesia comes across to me as you shaming me personally, and regardless of your intentions it may have this effect on other people.

4. The countries I typically criticize for fundamentalism are Saudi Arabia and Iran. As far as I know, this attitude of mine is quite common among others on this forum as well as among people in Indonesia. A lot of people, In Indonesia and elsewhere, are worried about Saudi and Iranian organizations and government agencies are fueling religious extremism and undermining democracy in Indonesia and elsewhere. Oh, and for the record: This is not about race, it's about two countries being fascist theocratic dictatorships hellbent on trying to drag the rest of the world down with them.

5. You claim that skin-color is a central factor, that it's about "elevating light skinned people of color above dark skinned ones". This is a very common attitude in the Middle East and North Africa, that there are people who portray the more lightly skinned Arabs and Egyptians as superior to the dark Africans of for example Darfur. I'm sure this attitude is common in western contexts as well. But on this forum? You talk about it as if it was common in this very thread. Got any examples of something that I or anyone else here have said here that could reasonably be interpreted in that way? Come on, quote mining is better than vague accusations.

6. Since you actually use people having a high regard for Indonesia as an example of people having a high regard for those who have light skin, I feel a need to point out the fact that the average Indonesian is far darker than the average person from Saudi Arabia, Iran or Afghanistan. Many Indonesians are just as dark as Africans/Afro-Americans. The average Arab or Persian can often pass for being of European origin by wearing the right clothes, especially if they dye their hair. The average Indonesian could never pass for anything but brown.

7. In conclusion: WTF???
Last edited by Xzenu on Thu May 09, 2013 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Xzenu
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:22 pm

Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby Xzenu » Thu May 09, 2013 10:11 am

Oh yeah, one more thing: Indonesia is a democracy. This democracy may be fragile, there's a lot of corruption and social problems. But the fact remains that the country is a democracy, with an active civil society.

When people highlight Indonesia as a relatively positive example, it's because of democracy and social progress. Not because of race.

You make it sound as if it's inherently racist to hold democracies in higher regard than dictatorships. :x

Please clarify your position.
I sincerely hope that you were simply lashing out, without thinking through how to communicate your intended message. As it currently stands, your post come across to me as... Meh, lets just leave i at that.
Xzenu
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:22 pm

Re: "Free Amina" turns racist (and other problems)

Postby Xzenu » Thu May 09, 2013 10:23 am

Kinda deraily, and also kinda obsolete [ Show ]
Hmm. On assuming good faith and all that...
Might it be that there is some background that I am not aware of?
Your post ending up in the wrong thread, or whatever?
Last edited by Xzenu on Thu May 09, 2013 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Xzenu
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:22 pm

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