Wowbagger@LousyCanuck: Here’s a novel thought: try contemplating the idea that there are people who aren’t you. No, really. Take your time. Once you’ve managed that and pondered the implications, maybe you’ll be able to grasp what’s going on here.
The Amazing Atheist
Buckle wrote:The only thing we really agree on as a group is pretty much equivalent to "be nice" which even a child knows is a good concept.
Seriously though. It irritates and confuses me and I hate being confused.
Buckle wrote:You know I don't understand. Is A+ even really making waves? Sure when it started, but now?
From my pov we are just chilling on our island telling some people sometimes that they need to get off it. Even then, they have to be pretty obvious assholes to be kicked off indefinitely. Essentially - we haven't ever gone on attack. We've defended our borders and tried to remain Switzerland. Why can't they just leave us the frack alone. No one has the TM on atheism. We don't even have a so-called leader - no one they even mention even posts here. The only thing we really agree on as a group is pretty much equivalent to "be nice" which even a child knows is a good concept.
Setar wrote:because we're demanding that everyone "be nice", rather than giving rich white straight cis able right-wing men free passes.
qmartindale wrote:Setar wrote:because we're demanding that everyone "be nice", rather than giving rich white straight cis able right-wing men free passes.
I think I'm missing something in your post. Aren't we saying that demands for everyone to "be nice'' are harmful?
Setar might not be, but I would, yes.
Simply put: Can you remember a time when something grievously unfair happened to you? Like, say, maybe your sibling, if you have one, punched you with no provocation, but you were the one punished because you must have done something to provoke it and not admitting to it was lying? Or, say, as an adult, maybe you were pickpocketed and had the cops refuse to even file a police report because, "We have more important things to work on,"?
How "nicely" could you argue your case then, when you throat and eyes stung with unchecked emotion and anger at the unfairness of it all? Do you remember the helpless despair of knowing there was absolutely nothing you could do to make it right?
Now imagine those sorts of things happened to you every day of every week of every year for your entire life, for things you have no control over: your gender, your skin color, your accent, your level of ability, etc. How angry would you get? How helpless would you feel?
How nice would you be able to be?
That's why "if you can't say anything nice, say nothing" and similar sentiments are harmful: They de facto silence the marginalized. I sure as hell can't talk sexism or ableism or bullying without getting angry and saying some not-nice things. If you demand that I ask for accessibility nicely, you demand that I swallow inaccessible situations without comment, because if some asshole wants to bring their cat on a plane, yes, I am going to get pissed off and angry that they think their ability to have Muffy the Cat with them on the flight is more important than my health and wellbeing. And so I'm probably not going to be "nice" about it. If you demand that I ask not to be sexually harrassed or assaulted "nicely," you're demanding that I put up with groping silently, because if some asshole gropes me, he's lucky if all I do is scream at him that he's a fucking asshole and who the fuck does he think he is? If you demanded that I asked not to be bullied and harassed on a daily basis in school "nicely" before you helped me, you'd be just like all the other teachers who made sure I was yet another silent victim because I couldn't get through my explanation of what was going on without crying and cursing.
Asking people to be "nice" isn't nice at all. It's harmful, and it's silencing, and it furthers the victimization of the already victimized.
Tinjoe wrote:Some of the people on FrogSaga's list have been engaged before and they continue to parrot the same ill defined criticisms. The above example of criticism is devoid of any specifics and simply asserts irrationality on the part of social justice advocates without demonstrating it (So what's there to address?). When you can nail them down to specifics they show a gross misunderstanding regarding the subjects they complain about. Schrödinger's Rapist, patriarchy, privilege, racism, etc… all concepts that I see misrepresented again and again.
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