Red cards for convention creeps

[rumblestiltsken]

So, there have been a few discussions of bigotry and sexism in other parts of the geekdom, like the science fiction culture, gaming and hacking.

In DefCon (the major hacking conference) there have been problems with harrassment, including authorised sexism from the conference itself. So one conference go-er decided to take matters into her own hands and created the "creeper cards".

You can read about these here and here.

Essentially they are some spiffy looking cards that women can carry and hand out to anyone who makes them feel uncomfortable. The idea is that it is a simple way to express feeling unsafe without having to actually engage with the harasser. The creator describes them as a "playful and relatively non-confrontational way to engage with behavior that women at tech conferences are all to eager to simply shrug off."

So what does everyone here think? Is this something that could help at conferences to make women feel more safe? I don't know how "non-confrontational" some guys might find them, but it could probably help women feel more supported when they recieve a stack of anti-harrassment cards in their conference-welcome pack.

I wondered whether they would be seen as 'divisive' (hah) but they seem to have gone down well in the tech/hacker community.

There is also a similar project where people can wear "Backup Ribbons" to signify they are willing to step in and back-up anyone being creeped on. i should also point out the founder of DefCon offered to pay to get the cards printed for everyone.

So ... too aggressive or divisive? Just right? Not far enough?

PS - for a more complete read about the pushback against harassment in the hacking community, see this post on the Ada Intiative.

[maiforpeace]

So, there have been a few discussions of bigotry and sexism in other parts of the geekdom, like the science fiction culture, gaming and hacking.

In DefCon (the major hacking conference) there have been problems with harrassment, including authorised seixsm from the conference itself. So one conference go-er decided to take matters into her own hands and created the "creeper cards".

You can read about these here and here.

Essentially they are some spiffy looking cards that women can carry and hand out to anyone who makes them feel uncomfortable. The idea is that it is a simple way to express feeling unsafe without having to actually engage with the harasser. The creator describes them as a "playful and relatively non-confrontational way to engage with behavior that women at tech conferences are all to eager to simply shrug off."

So what does everyone here think? Is this something that could help at conferences to make women feel more safe? I don't know how "non-confrontational" some guys might find them, but it could probably help women feel more supported when they recieve a stack of anti-harrassment cards in their conference-welcome pack.

I wondered whether they would be seen as 'divisive' (hah) but they seem to have gone down well in the tech/hacker community.

There is also a similar project where people can wear "Backup Ribbons" to signify they are willing to step in and back-up anyone being creeped on. i should also point out the founder of DefCon offered to pay to get the cards printed for everyone.

So ... to aggressive or divisive? Just right? Not far enough?

PS - for a more complete read about the pushback against harassment in the hacking community, see this post on the Ada Intiative.

Hmmm.

Interesting idea, though I would strongly discourage handing them out directly to offenders.

People have to wear badges at conventions. How about putting cards like that in the packet, and if someone is creeped on, they can write the offender's name on it, and put it into an anonymous box to give out later to the creepers. Kind of like a personal suggestion box?

[piegasm]

People have to wear badges at conventions. How about putting cards like that in the packet, and if someone is creeped on, they can write the offender's name on it, and put it into an anonymous box to give out later to the creepers. Kind of like a personal suggestion box?

On the one hand, I like this because it allows someone who has been harassed to avoid the risk of further provoking their harasser by giving them a card directly.

On the other hand, I worry about the well-meaning but socially awkward guy who really wants to not be a creeper but just doesn't understand where he's going wrong. As someone who is not neurotypical, I understand what it's like to have your attempts at socializing go badly for reasons you're unable to put your finger on even though you thought you were playing by the rules, so to speak. I think just handing someone like this a card saying they creeped someone out might exacerbate the frustration at better socialized people expecting all this to be common sense to you when it just isn't.

[Avery Thompson]

There is also a similar project where people can wear "Backup Ribbons" to signify they are willing to step in and back-up anyone being creeped on.

I don't know if this is such a good idea. While the sentiment is admirable, I think there's too much of a risk for something to go wrong. For starters, the backup person would have to evaluate the situation on the fly, and there's always a possibility they could misunderstand or misevaluate something. They could also just escalate the conflict, making it go from bad to worse. Plus, chances are these people would have little to no formal training in how to handle these situations, unless the con was willing to give them training, in which case why not just go a step further and make them volunteers? It seems to me that this has the potential to make bad situations worse. The goal with this project is to make harassed people more comfortable, not to bring in people to fight their battles for them.

[julian]

It seems to me that this has the potential to make bad situations worse. The goal with this project is to make harassed people more comfortable, not to bring in people to fight their battles for them.

Pretty much the thought I had.

[Nicko]

Hmmm.

Interesting idea, though I would strongly discourage handing them out directly to offenders.

People have to wear badges at conventions. How about putting cards like that in the packet, and if someone is creeped on, they can write the offender's name on it, and put it into an anonymous box to give out later to the creepers. Kind of like a personal suggestion box?

Right, so people can make unsubstantiated anonymous allegations about other people who then have no recourse to refute said allegations. I'm sure that wouldn't be abused at all.

Sorry Mai, it's a terrible idea.

How about this? If someone feels that they are being harassed, they can bring the matter to the attention of management or security.

Or is expecting people who expect to be treated like adults to act like adults some subtle form of oppression?

[maiforpeace]

Hmmm.

Interesting idea, though I would strongly discourage handing them out directly to offenders.

People have to wear badges at conventions. How about putting cards like that in the packet, and if someone is creeped on, they can write the offender's name on it, and put it into an anonymous box to give out later to the creepers. Kind of like a personal suggestion box?

Right, so people can make unsubstantiated anonymous allegations about other people who then have no recourse to refute said allegations. I'm sure that wouldn't be abused at all.

Sorry Mai, it's a terrible idea.

How about this? If someone feels that they are being harassed, they can bring the matter to the attention of management or security.

Any reason why you are directing this to me Nicko? It wasn't my idea, I just offered an alternative.

[julian]

Hmmm.

Interesting idea, though I would strongly discourage handing them out directly to offenders.

People have to wear badges at conventions. How about putting cards like that in the packet, and if someone is creeped on, they can write the offender's name on it, and put it into an anonymous box to give out later to the creepers. Kind of like a personal suggestion box?

Right, so people can make unsubstantiated anonymous allegations about other people who then have no recourse to refute said allegations. I'm sure that wouldn't be abused at all.

Sorry Mai, it's a terrible idea.

How about this? If someone feels that they are being harassed, they can bring the matter to the attention of management or security.

Any reason why you are directing this to me Nicko? It wasn't my idea, I just offered an alternative.

Nicko's obnoxious?

[fritztoch]

I'm not sure if its a good idea or not, but I *do* think constructive suggestions should be encouraged. Tweeted.

[julian]

To be honest besides making security and other convention staff aware of the sorts of problems they might run into, making them visible and distributing how, when and where they can be contacted, I can't think of much to be done. Does anyone with con experience have anymore suggestions?

[rumblestiltsken]

I can suggest that there are a lot of people with experience with doing this so it is worth looking through the DefCon blogs before making your minds up. At the very least it made the "we don't like harassment" thing visible.

I also didn't like the backup ribbons thing, but it was just another idea.

I think the idea of the cards was that you could give a card, and walk off. Kind of a non-verbal conversation closer. Considering the vast majority of harassment is probably 'unintentional' it would give pause for thought.

Do we really see situations at conferences where someone is doggedly harassing someone publically and would escalate if given a card? I am in Australia, so don't get conferences very often.

The other thing is the card pack contains "green cards", which say "thank you for being a normal person", to be handed out in polite interactions.

I like the idea of out-of-the-box thinking. Social pressure is really only the way to change culture, and making harassment visible sounds good. Everyone raises good concerns though.

[julian]

Hmmm,

To those reading who are atypicals (or anyone really), would cards do anything for you in those social situations? For me it'd be easy to either just walk away or hit someone but I realize that's just the way I handle things. Would a green card to show gratitude or a red card as a quick escape offer any meaningful help in navigating conventions and convention floors.

[Avery Thompson]

When it comes to 'unintentional' harassment, I'm not sure that the cards would be all that helpful in correcting behavior. A generic card that says something like, "You're being a creep" probably wouldn't go very far in explaining what exactly was wrong, especially in situations where it's not immediately obvious. Now, of course, the decision of how to end the conversation belongs solely with the harassee, and having that option available would be helpful. I'm just saying that when it comes to learning what is and is not acceptable behavior, verbally explaining it is probably far more productive than handing the person a card. Now whether anyone really wants to patiently explain basic social etiquette over and over again is another story.

[Nicko]

Any reason why you are directing this to me Nicko? It wasn't my idea, I just offered an alternative.

And I'm sorry - I think I said that - but I think it's a terrible alternative. It's a better idea, I'll grant, than the idea in the OP. As for that idea, it's just bizarre. What possible good could come of a plan like this being enacted? Publicly humiliating people? When did that get cool?

Best case scenario, it's just as offensive as the behaviour it purports to address.

Worse case scenario, some adverse reaction is provoked in an already socially-awkward person. What happens if a person with, say, Aspergers or clinical depression gets carded?

Worst case scenario, the person handed the card is actually dangerous. Do I really need to explain that publicly ridiculing such a person might not be the smartest thing to do?

A sensible anti-harassment policy combined with competent enforcement is the way to go. If you have a problem, there are people whose job it is to solve it. You just have to ask them.

[julian]

But that's just part of any anti-harassment policy, isn't it? Explaining what behavior is inappropriate and how to avoid being unintentionally "creepy" or otherwise harassing someone. Like parties and clubs with "That Guy" posters warning against excessive drinking leading to belligerence.

[Avery Thompson]

What possible good could come of a plan like this being enacted?

Nicko, I think the cards are mainly used as a conversation ender. Sometimes when in an undesirable conversation, it becomes difficult to politely leave. These cards provide a possible means of escape.

Worse case scenario, some adverse reaction is provoked in an already socially-awkward person.

When it comes to the feelings of the person receiving the card, I would say that they should be taken into account, but that the feelings of the person being creeped on take precedence. If a person feels they need to use these cards, then they should have the right to use these cards.

Worst case scenario, the person handed the card is actually dangerous.

Bear in mind, this would happen at cons, where there are typically other people around. The likelihood of something bad happening is small. Also, keep in mind that this has apparently been used at other cons without this problem.

[Nicko]

But that's just part of any anti-harassment policy, isn't it? Explaining what behavior is inappropriate and how to avoid being unintentionally "creepy" or otherwise harassing someone. Like parties and clubs with "That Guy" posters warning against excessive drinking leading to belligerence.

But more than that. Any anti-harassment policy is only as good as its implementation. You need trained, experienced staff or an anti-harassment policy is not worth the paper it's written on.

I'm not sure how effective "education" policies can be on site. Certainly as a larger project, they are valuable. It's just that ... if some dude has arrived at a convention thinking that an elevator is an appropriate space to initiate a move towards intimacy, there's probably not much a simple poster can do for him.

Policy. Competent enforcement. Get them in place and use them if necessary.

[julian]

Also, keep in mind that this has apparently been used at other cons without this problem.

Has it? Would you mind sharing at which ones or is it already listed and I just glanced over it?

EDIT:

But more than that. Any anti-harassment policy is only as good as its implementation. You need trained, experienced staff

True.

[Nicko]

Nicko, I think the cards are mainly used as a conversation ender. Sometimes when in an undesirable conversation, it becomes difficult to politely leave. These cards provide a possible means of escape.

So the person is not confident enough to tell the other person to go away, but feels confident enough to hand out a card telling them to go away? Sorry if I don't believe that someone with the guts to give out one of these cards is such a shrinking violet that they can't express themselves in words.

Worse case scenario, some adverse reaction is provoked in an already socially-awkward person.

When it comes to the feelings of the person receiving the card, I would say that they should be taken into account, but that the feelings of the person being creeped on take precedence. If a person feels they need to use these cards, then they should have the right to use these cards.

Or just, you know, use words.

Worst case scenario, the person handed the card is actually dangerous.

Bear in mind, this would happen at cons, where there are typically other people around. The likelihood of something bad happening is small. Also, keep in mind that this has apparently been used at other cons without this problem.

Which is merely evidence that no one has yet handed one of these to a genuinely dangerous person.

[Social Marxist]

I think the best bet is really to have well trained staff. This way, someone who isn't PART of a situation isn't making the final judgement call on everything. Case and point, at the Ottawa Comic-Con, a friend of mine tried to start a conversation with someone. They didn't want to talk, and so he left them alone... Next thing we knew, security was asking him about the incident. He didn't even realize there WAS an incident.

It also didn't take security long to realize he wasn't some kind of crazy stalker, or creeper, he was just a dude with Autism and a stutter, who said "hi, hows it goin" to someone who didn't appreciate the attempt at conversation.

Now, that case isn't meant to say there are not many others were security should have tossed someone on their butt, or that they really were being creepy... but I would rather leave the insulting someone by calling them "creepy" to a trained group, who evaluate an incident on the facts, and not on peoples gut reactions.

[rumblestiltsken]

DefCon 20 just happened. There isn't much online about how it went down, but I found these comments -

"Apparently some people did turn those cards into badges of pride, but a surprisingly large number did not. I figure that even if they do subvert the game in this way, they are still playing the cards they’ve been dealt as it were. They are owning the fact that some woman (or women) would call their behavior creepy or sexist.

However, it seems as if a lot of people used the cards as an educational tool, and even men were handing them out to other men."

and this gem ... which is so relevent here it hurts

"There's something interesting about these cards - they're helping DEFCON people adopt a usable vocabulary for talking about harassment, an addition to our jargon.
Here's an example. A few days ago I was part of a Rio elevator full of DEFCON people when it stopped at a floor where a non-attendee woman was looking to get in. There was obviously no room inside, but one of the guys hollered at her to "get in anyway - you're a cute woman - we love women - this ratio needs to be improved!" She instantly disappeared. As the elevator door closed, another guy looked at him and said "dude, yellow card." Silence the rest of the way down.

It's a small thing, but I was the one DEFCON woman in the elevator, and I appreciated that verbal yellow card - in other words, while I was in the middle of mentally processing what had just happened and whether creepy attention would shift to me, a fellow attendee had quickly and effectively reset the tone of the elevator to basic civility. This is good."

[Avery Thompson]

Julian:
From the op,

In DefCon (the major hacking conference) there have been problems with harrassment, including authorised sexism from the conference itself. So one conference go-er decided to take matters into her own hands and created the "creeper cards".

You can read about these here and here.

Nicko:
You seem to know a lot about other people's motivations and how this situation usually resolves. This tells me that either you have a lot of experience dealing with this type of scenario, or you're just making wild assumptions about other people.
For instance, it's not completely out of the question that someone wanting to extricate themselves from a conversation might not be very good at using words. Perhaps they're not eloquent enough to handle it with the delicacy that it deserves. Perhaps they're so flustered/shocked/confused/whatever that they can't handle talking right at that moment. Perhaps they want to get away from that situation as quickly as possible, and handing that person a card is the fastest way to get out of there, while simultaneously telling them that they're really not interested.
These are only a few possible explanations that either you didn't consider, or, with your wealth of experience in this area, deemed inconsequential. Granted, I don't have a lot of experience here either, but at least I'm not assuming that my experience is typical, or even universal, as you seem to.

[ischemgeek]

I am supportive of the strategy, so long as it's not seen as a substitute for an effective harrassment policy. I can see how it would be empowering to some. Personally, I'd be unlikely to hand the cards out: I'm leery of even mild confrontation with strange people because I've known many who would respond to even such a mild rebuke with an explosion of abuse and threats of violence even in public. And, yes, I know the chances are small and my experiences are outliers, but that doesn't change the conditioning my life has given me. If someone else wants to, they can go for it, but security should still be willing to help out people like me who would be very uncomfortable with something like this. Since this seems to be the way that most cons that have it have applied it, I'm less leery of the idea than I would be if it was brand new. Anything that empowers those on the receiving end of harrassment is a good thing, I think.

[julian]

Perhaps they're not eloquent enough to handle it with the delicacy that it deserves. Perhaps they're so flustered/shocked/confused/whatever that they can't handle talking right at that moment. Perhaps they want to get away from that situation as quickly as possible, and handing that person a card is the fastest way to get out of there, while simultaneously telling them that they're really not interested.

This is why I wanted to here from neural atypicals. From what I understand certain people on the spectrum struggle with vocalizing that certain behavior is hurting them or that they're very uncomfortable. These cards seem like that might help with that but I honestly don't know. From my mostly neural typical and cis man outlook this seems like a bit childish. But if it works and eases the burden on others I got not business complaining.

[ischemgeek]

Perhaps they're not eloquent enough to handle it with the delicacy that it deserves. Perhaps they're so flustered/shocked/confused/whatever that they can't handle talking right at that moment. Perhaps they want to get away from that situation as quickly as possible, and handing that person a card is the fastest way to get out of there, while simultaneously telling them that they're really not interested.

This is why I wanted to here from neural atypicals. From what I understand certain people on the spectrum struggle with vocalizing that certain behavior is hurting them or that they're very uncomfortable. These cards seem like that might help with that but I honestly don't know. From my mostly neural typical and cis man outlook this seems like a bit childish. But if it works and eases the burden on others I got not business complaining.

It's not just those who are neuroatypical who might find help with the communication issue: Those with speech impediments often find theirs get worse under stress (the only time I stutter significantly nowadays is when I'm flustered or upset so this is definitely true for me). People with severe speech impediments may find it impossible to verbally communicate under stress - this used to be true of me. Imagine being in a situation where someone is making you uncomfortable and feel threatened. Now you're going to confront that person which puts you under more stress. And now you can't talk. And probably the other person is not helping by trying to substitute words for you or pressuring you to get out what you want to say or making fun of your difficulty in saying it. It sucks and it's a very helpless feeling it gives you.

Or consider that people in marginalized groups, and women especially, are often taught to avoid confrontation and saying anything that could be considered mean to those in power. Maybe you can't verbally overcome that conditioning, but you can bring yourself to hand out a card.

And so on. Please don't blame a reluctance to be confrontational on emotional immaturity. Usually, there are other things at play.