What is it with rape jokes?

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What is it with rape jokes?

Postby emptyell » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:39 pm

When the Tosh thing hit I was a bit taken aback (to put it mildly). I wasn't aware of rape jokes being a thing and couldn't imagine how they could ever be funny in any way.

Earlier today this came up over on the Schoedinger's Rapist thread...

I think rape jokes are funny. But I don't wish anyone to be raped. I think racists jokes are funny, but I'm not a racist.


Which got me thinking about it again so I decided to see if I could get over my gag reflex and did a bit of googling. To my surprise I came across this:

Kate Harding: 15 Rape Jokes That Work

So now as I see it the issue isn't the subject of the joke but the target. I can now understand the value of well crafted jokes as critiques of rape culture and rape apologists, but I still can't get my head around how anyone can find it funny to make jokes at the victims expense. Perhaps I'm just allergic to brain bleach and am naturally averse to letting such crap in so as to avoid the consequent scrubbing.

So I guess what I'm wondering is how can anyone find it funny when the target is the victim?

Final note: When I first heard of the Tosh thing I couldn't help but imagine getting up from the audience and shouting back at him "What if five of us just came up on stage right now and beat the living shit out of you? Wouldn't that be hilarious?"
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby The_Laughing_Coyote » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:49 pm

The one word answer is: Misogyny.

It all ties in to rape culture. I could go on but I'll shut up and let people who know more than me take it from here, because I think I might have a bit to learn here too.
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby maiforpeace » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:02 pm

This subject has been brought up on a couple of forums with very controversial responses, so I'll be extremely interested to see how this discussion plays out this forum. 8-)
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby The_Laughing_Coyote » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:10 pm

I suppose if you want to know HOW people could find rape jokes making fun of the victim hilarious, there are just too many reasons for me to list coherently right now. But I can try a few.

First of all, victims are easy targets. I think this ties into the difference between rape jokes that make fun of perps and rape culture, and rape jokes that make fun of victims. One is 'punching up,' the other is 'punching down', regarding the whole Privilege thing.

Then there's the whole dudebro culture. "Bros before Hos" and all that pigshit. I'm told it's rather prevalent in some college campuses, though I've never gone to college.

There's also the whole trend in society to dismiss women's experiences with rape, especially if it's not the classic 'Crazy guy in a balaclava creeping in through the window or dragging you behind a bush' scenario. The tendency to dismiss them as exaggerations, or misunderstandings, or worst of all, the woman just changing her mind afterwards and claiming it's 'rape'.

I could go on, and probably will when I organize my thoughts better, but I'm hardly the best educator here on this subject.
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby Cipher » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:10 pm

Here's my very favorite blog post on the subject. A Woman Walks Into a Rape, uh, Bar by Harriet at Fugitivus.
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby GodSlayer » Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:27 am

The_Laughing_Coyote wrote:The one word answer is: Misogyny.


so, what's it called when a joke is made at a man's expense?
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby Onamission5 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:16 am

GodSlayer wrote:
The_Laughing_Coyote wrote:The one word answer is: Misogyny.


So, what's it called when a joke is made at a man's expense?


Is the man a rape victim? If he is, that is also called misogyny, or, more accurately, rape culture.

Are you really arguing that you are entitled to disregard an entire culture dedicated to celebrating the humiliation and degradation of women because some of those that culture targets are male?
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby Flewellyn » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:22 am

MOD NOTE: GodSlayer, "what about the menz?" is considered derailing.
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby qmartindale » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:06 am

Comedians often find humor in shock value. People tell dead baby jokes. Violating social norms can produce laughter.
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby GodSlayer » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:09 am

Mod: Hidden for derail. [ Show ]
Onamission5 wrote:
GodSlayer wrote:
The_Laughing_Coyote wrote:The one word answer is: Misogyny.

So, what's it called when a joke is made at a man's expense?

Is the man a rape victim?

no, just 'a' joke, not 'a rape joke'.

Onamission5 wrote:Are you really arguing that you are entitled to disregard an entire culture dedicated to celebrating the humiliation and degradation of women because some of those that culture targets are male?


no, I'm only arguing that all we end up with is speciesism this way (if we can't make jokes with women as victims, presumably it would also be wrong to do the same to men, which (if we assume the same applies to children) leaves only non-humans, which vegans might dislike as much as feminists dislike what's at issue).
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby GodSlayer » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:10 am

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Flewellyn wrote:MOD NOTE: GodSlayer, "what about the menz?" is considered derailing.


the argumentum ad absurdum is a legitimate tactic which addresses an argument, it does not derail from the argument.

how do you argue the contrary?
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby Cipher » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:10 am

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GodSlayer wrote:
Onamission5 wrote:
GodSlayer wrote:So, what's it called when a joke is made at a man's expense?

Is the man a rape victim?

no, just 'a' joke, not 'a rape joke'.

That would be "a joke made at a man's expense." What's the relevance of this question?
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby GodSlayer » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:19 am

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Cipher wrote:That would be "a joke made at a man's expense." What's the relevance of this question?


why isn't it called 'hatred of men'?

the relevance is explicating the goal that is in mind. if we want to change society, presumably it's to get rid of misandry and mistrans...whatever the applicable terms are, as well as misogyny. which leaves us with what? it seems a lot more absurd when you apply equality to the idea than when you merely make out that women should be privileged in this respect
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby Cipher » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:29 am

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GodSlayer wrote:
Cipher wrote:That would be "a joke made at a man's expense." What's the relevance of this question?


why isn't it called 'hatred of men'?

Because you haven't established that the joke is either hateful or gender-based, let alone both...?
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby Catherine » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:34 am

Can we for once not have a thread with a "what about the menz?" derail, pretty please? This is getting so wearing.

GodSlayer: We are not talking about jokes here we are talking about rape jokes, if you want to talk about jokes against men feel free to make your own thread, but your posts are at best off topic.

Back on topic:

Rape jokes get a response as they are seen as taboo, so it is more laughing in shock than you actually find something funny. Thus it gets an easy laugh so lazy comedians use them to get that laugh without thinking of the consequences. Also the comedians who make these jokes have no idea how high the prevalence of sexual assault is. Some stats here:

Trigger warning rape stats [ Show ]
These are UK stats.
21% of Girls and 11% of Boys have experienced sexual abuse as children
23% of Women and 3% of men have experienced some form of sexual assault
5% of women and 0.5% of men have been raped
Source:
http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/mythsampfacts2.php


This means that in a comedians audience, if it is aprox 50/50 men and women, statistically about 13% will have experienced some form of sexual assault, and 2.75% will be a rape survivor. So the chances are there will be a rape survivor in the audience. This is why they are bad, not because they 'offend' but because they have the power to be emotionally damaging to those people.
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby GodSlayer » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:37 am

Catherine wrote:GodSlayer: We are not talking about jokes here we are talking about rape jokes, if you want to talk about jokes against men feel free to make your own thread, but your posts are at best off topic.


ok.
I'm not sure how that can be at all productive, but I might lurk to find out.
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby GodSlayer » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:39 am

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Cipher wrote:
GodSlayer wrote:
Cipher wrote:That would be "a joke made at a man's expense." What's the relevance of this question?


why isn't it called 'hatred of men'?

Because you haven't established that the joke is either hateful or gender-based, let alone both...?


I have no problem with that answer, as long as it also applies to what I was responding to:
The_Laughing_Coyote wrote:The one word answer is: Misogyny.
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby The_Laughing_Coyote » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:43 am

How does Misogyny tie into rape jokes about men? Is that what Godslayer is going on about?

How many men are afraid to report rapes because 'it's something that only happens to women!' and they're afraid it'll be mocked? And that's just off the top of my head.

See also: Patriarchy Hurts Men Too (PHMT)
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby emptyell » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:50 am

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GodSlayer wrote:
Onamission5 wrote:Are you really arguing that you are entitled to disregard an entire culture dedicated to celebrating the humiliation and degradation of women because some of those that culture targets are male?


no, I'm only arguing that all we end up with is speciesism this way (if we can't make jokes with women as victims, presumably it would also be wrong to do the same to men, which (if we assume the same applies to children) leaves only non-humans, which vegans might dislike as much as feminists dislike what's at issue).


There is lots of humor that doesn't rely on further victimizing victims. Do you really think it would be a cultural loss to not kick people when they are down?

This is a crude and frankly repulsive kind of humor regardless of the target, male, female or otherwise. There could be jokes making fun of guys losing their jobs and committing suicide because they could no longer support their families and yes I would find these repulsive also. How would you feel about jokes about lynchings or mass murder or torture which make fun of the victims. I'm sure there have been plenty of such "jokes" by the perpetrators of these crimes. These could apply to anyone regardless of gender, race, faith, or even species and they would still be repugnant.

But here it just so happens that we are talking about rape jokes. You don't go onto a Ford discussion forum and say "hey what about Chevys?" do you? It is arrogant and offensive to barge into a room and tell every one that they should change the topic of conversation because you say so.

If you feel there is systematic targeting of men due to their gender start your own topic and make your case there.

If you have anything to contribute here that is on topic feel free to do so, even if it's why you find rape jokes funny.

But if you're really just here to whine about the poor oppressed men then do the honorable thing and leave.

EDIT: It took me long enough to compose this that now I feel I am piling on.

Godslayer, it seems you are becoming more reasoned so I apologize if this is a bit harsh. I'd rather not delete it though since it is my strongly held opinion. If it no longer applies to you then I am quite pleased.
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby Catherine » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:17 am

The question is: Is a rape joke ever OK? A comedian posted this on twitter just now is essentially a bad pun on a date being a dried prune, but it is a rape joke, hidden behind the trigger warning.
Trigger warning: Rape based joke [ Show ]
@TonyCowards wrote:I admit that at college, I did molest a prune but I deny the accusation that it was date rape.


Won't say what I think of it as I don't feel qualified to comment.
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby neamhspleachas » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:17 am

I like Jamie Kilstein's take:

Comedy is a subversive art that should be used to take down oppressors not they oppressed.
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby GodSlayer » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:31 am

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emptyell wrote:There is lots of humor that doesn't rely on further victimizing victims. Do you really think it would be a cultural loss to not kick people when they are down?

any silencing on free speech is a tragedy. it's the principle, not the content, I'm worried about.

emptyell wrote: There could be jokes making fun of guys losing their jobs and committing suicide because they could no longer support their families and yes I would find these repulsive also.

cool. that's as far as I had any interest injecting 'men' into this conversation. (if we can get beyond 'it's about women, so it must be hatred of women', look at _all_ the data, seeing that it's not only against women, or only by men, then we can hopefully get a better look at the general issue of the possibly disgusting reality of laughing at the unfortunate).

emptyell wrote: How would you feel about jokes about lynchings or mass murder or torture which make fun of the victims. I'm sure there have been plenty of such "jokes" by the perpetrators of these crimes. These could apply to anyone regardless of gender, race, faith, or even species and they would still be repugnant.

this is just something I can only argue that I'd have to take on the chin.
I would love it if everyone I knew was forced to be silent or even to lie to me to make me feel better, rather than being able to make jokes or even unfunny insults at my expense (truth can hurt, and even lies can hurt), but I can't find any decent way to justify that sort of oppression.

emptyell wrote:But here it just so happens that we are talking about rape jokes. You don't go onto a Ford discussion forum and say "hey what about Chevys?" do you? It is arrogant and offensive to barge into a room and tell every one that they should change the topic of conversation because you say so.

perhaps it is arrogant. I trust, though, that if I'm wrong someone will correct me. I don't think it's that much more arrogant than being the person in the first instance who wishes to define the limits of the discourse. if we're both aiming at a better understanding, the question of stasis can be worked out civilly.

emptyell wrote:But if you're really just here to whine about the poor oppressed men then do the honorable thing and leave.

to be clear: I don't mention men in order to say things are as bad or worse for them, only to note that the phenomena of interest is not one men are free from (and, therefore, if we care about people, this is data we shouldn't leave out of consideration), and therefore simple 'men do it, and it's because they hate women' answers are going to fail, since they from the outset are looking for an explanation without factoring in all the data. it would be like me saying 'schoolgirls are ruthless gossipping bitches', when perhaps the issue is one of 'our culture' in general, or at least 'teenagers' in general. ... to begin theorizing about what is wrong with females, ignoring the comparable conduct of boys would surely strike anyone here as prejudiced.

emptyell wrote:Godslayer, it seems you are becoming more reasoned so I apologize if this is a bit harsh. I'd rather not delete it though since it is my strongly held opinion. If it no longer applies to you then I am quite pleased.

'sall good, just remember I can be wrong, and even very wrong, especially about things I haven't been studying or arguing about for years, so offering my perspective is really only offering something of a roadmap for how to correct a viewpoint I offer, which I can then go on to correct other people about in the future--which is surely better than my silence (an unstated belief is a lot harder to disabuse someone of).
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby GodSlayer » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:43 am

neamhspleachas wrote:I like Jamie Kilstein's take:

Comedy is a subversive art that should be used to take down oppressors not they oppressed.


it's a kind sentiment, but what baggage does he intend to bring with that 'should'?

what concrete instructions can we draw from this?: thou shalt not mock Muslims by drawing their prophet, until such time as they are no longer living under oppressive regimes? on pain of what? rules need consequences.
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby neamhspleachas » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:52 am

GodSlayer wrote:
neamhspleachas wrote:I like Jamie Kilstein's take:

Comedy is a subversive art that should be used to take down oppressors not they oppressed.


it's a kind sentiment, but what baggage does he intend to bring with that 'should'?

what concrete instructions can we draw from this?: thou shalt not mock Muslims by drawing their prophet, until such time as they are no longer living under oppressive regimes? on pain of what? rules need consequences.


I don't think he's proposing a rule. I'm pretty sure he means if you're not a shitty person, this is what you do.
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Re: What is it with rape jokes?

Postby GodSlayer » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:54 am

Catherine wrote:The question is: Is a rape joke ever OK?

I'd say the question is quite the opposite.

if we can all agree that the question is not 'is a joke about Jesus ever ok?' or 'is joking about the pope ever ok?' or 'is a joke about Bin Laden ever ok?', then surely we can agree 'is a rape joke ever ok?' is not the question, but rather, the burden is on those seeking to constrain free speech to argue why silencing free speech is more ok than some statements people might make?

Am I mistaken--do the people of the forum support the concept of blasphemy laws? (and, please, no 'oppressed/oppressor' red herrings--'it's ok to joke about raping Stalin because he's an oppressor'...isn't that just trivializing the trauma?)
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