emptyell wrote:There is lots of humor that doesn't rely on further victimizing victims. Do you really think it would be a cultural loss to not kick people when they are down?
any silencing on free speech is a tragedy. it's the
principle, not the
content, I'm worried about.
emptyell wrote: There could be jokes making fun of guys losing their jobs and committing suicide because they could no longer support their families and yes I would find these repulsive also.
cool. that's as far as I had any interest injecting 'men' into this conversation. (if we can get beyond 'it's about women, so it must be hatred of women', look at _all_ the data, seeing that it's not only against women, or only by men, then we can hopefully get a better look at the general issue of the possibly disgusting reality of laughing at the unfortunate).
emptyell wrote: How would you feel about jokes about lynchings or mass murder or torture which make fun of the victims. I'm sure there have been plenty of such "jokes" by the perpetrators of these crimes. These could apply to anyone regardless of gender, race, faith, or even species and they would still be repugnant.
this is just something I can only argue that I'd have to take on the chin.
I would love it if everyone I knew was forced to be silent or even to lie to me to make me feel better, rather than being able to make jokes or even unfunny insults at my expense (truth can hurt, and even lies can hurt), but I can't find any decent way to justify that sort of oppression.
emptyell wrote:But here it just so happens that we are talking about rape jokes. You don't go onto a Ford discussion forum and say "hey what about Chevys?" do you? It is arrogant and offensive to barge into a room and tell every one that they should change the topic of conversation because you say so.
perhaps it is arrogant. I trust, though, that if I'm wrong someone will correct me. I don't think it's that much more arrogant than being the person in the first instance who wishes to define the limits of the discourse. if we're both aiming at a better understanding, the question of stasis can be worked out civilly.
emptyell wrote:But if you're really just here to whine about the poor oppressed men then do the honorable thing and leave.
to be clear: I don't mention men in order to say things are as bad or worse for them, only to note that the phenomena of interest is not one men are free from (and, therefore, if we care about people, this is data we shouldn't leave out of consideration), and therefore simple 'men do it, and it's because they hate women' answers are going to fail, since they from the outset are looking for an explanation without factoring in all the data. it would be like me saying 'schoolgirls are ruthless gossipping bitches', when perhaps the issue is one of 'our culture' in general, or at least 'teenagers' in general. ... to begin theorizing about what is wrong with females, ignoring the comparable conduct of boys would surely strike anyone here as prejudiced.
emptyell wrote:Godslayer, it seems you are becoming more reasoned so I apologize if this is a bit harsh. I'd rather not delete it though since it is my strongly held opinion. If it no longer applies to you then I am quite pleased.
'sall good, just remember I can be wrong, and even very wrong, especially about things I haven't been studying or arguing about for years, so offering my perspective is really only offering something of a roadmap for how to correct a viewpoint I offer, which I can then go on to correct other people about in the future--which is surely better than my silence (an unstated belief is a lot harder to disabuse someone of).