Discussion of gender pronouns (derail of I thought they knew...)

[Pteryxx]

We're English-centric here, because it's an English-speaking site.

Also, the treatment and conceptualization of gender in other languages (and thus cultures) probably would require their own solutions, taking the context into account. Some cultures already have concepts, and terms, for nonbinary gender:

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/two-spirits/map.html

[Ginny]

I had a lightbulb moment this summer when I was reading a Crommunist post where he used "ze" to refer to someone whose gender was unknown (or unimportant to the story if it was a hypothetical... I can't remember which.) Previously I had preferred to use "they" because "ze" sounded so unnatural to me, and I care a lot about the aesthetics of language. But I noticed how, as I was reading, the use of "ze" drew my attention to the fact that this could be a person of any gender. In the same sentence, I would have simply passed over a "they" and probably envisioned whatever gender the other circumstances of the sentence primed me to expect (I'm sorry to say that I still automatically envision a default doctor as male, for example.)

So now I like "ze" in part BECAUSE it is jarring. It draws attention to assumptions about gender and defaults and binariness in a really quick, subtle way that I think can be very effective for producing change in the way we think about things. And, of course, the hope is that eventually it will be used commonly enough that it sounds completely natural. (Anyone remember when "blog" was an ugly, awkward, made-up word?)

[Onamission5]

Nodding to Ginny, ayup. I like neutral pronouns for that reason too. Whether I am reading them or writing them, it makes me have to stop and think, to be attentive to my biases and assumptions surrounding gender. I am still getting used to neutral pronouns and sometimes I use them wrong or mess up the spelling, I'm sure, like I have been adding an i in ze all this time without realizing it, and this thread has brought that to my attention. It's uncomfortable and awkward sometimes and it's rare that anyone likes the feeling of being uncomfortable about themselves but that is a good thing in this case because to me it means I am, however awkwardly, expanding my world view and lessening the likelihood of causing even worse discomfort or hurt to another person.

[Pteryxx]

*whispers* "zie" is an acceptable alternate spelling, as is "xie", so far. /nothelping ;>

[Ginny]

Yep, one of the nice things about the alternative pronouns right now is that it's hard to actually get them wrong. At some point I'm sure the language will standardize, but right now there's so much variety (and little authoritative consensus) that you're not going to look like an idiot. I do strongly prefer the "z" beginning over the "x," because "x" has sort of non-person connotations to me. But I might be alone in that.

[Onamission5]

*whispers* "zie" is an acceptable alternate spelling, as is "xie", so far. /nothelping ;>

Helping! (you helping me, not me helping anyone else) Awkward, but worth it.

[Pteryxx]

*nodnod* I tend to use "xe" because I happen to like X's *cough* but it's obvious to me that people reading it stumble way more over the X version than they do the Z version. At the moment I randomly use whichever ones seem to work, when one hasn't been specified.

[Lovely]

Yep, one of the nice things about the alternative pronouns right now is that it's hard to actually get them wrong. At some point I'm sure the language will standardize, but right now there's so much variety (and little authoritative consensus) that you're not going to look like an idiot. I do strongly prefer the "z" beginning over the "x," because "x" has sort of non-person connotations to me. But I might be alone in that.

I started out liking the 'z', but there are times when I enjoy thinking about the 'x' version because x is used so often as a variable.

X could be anything! In that manner I think it's neat. But, for whatever reasons I just like the z personally.

[irkthepurists]

So how you feel about it is more important than getting someone's gender correct?

Not at all, which is why I share your preference for 'they/their'. I'd never previously considered that 'he or she' or 's/he' excluded transgender people, but I'm aware of it now.

And yes I'm privileged, but I've still got a view on the aesthetics of language. I'd say 'ze' and 'zis' sounds...a bit silly. If you're making a plea for social justice, it's probably a good idea not to sound like Laurence Olivier in Marathon Man.

On the subject of "invented pronouns," all pronouns were invented at some point, so what's wrong with inventing a few more?

The etymological evolution of 'he' and 'she' is a different thing, though - they weren't 'invented' in the same way. For some reason, it tends to be accidental coinages that catch on.

[SubMor]

The etymological evolution of 'he' and 'she' is a different thing, though - they weren't 'invented' in the same way.

No? How were he and she invented, then?

For some reason, it tends to be accidental coinages that catch on.

Citation needed.

As to things sounding strange, all unfamiliar language sounds strange. You get used to it.

[Galexty]

And yes I'm privileged, but I've still got a view on the aesthetics of language. I'd say 'ze' and 'zis' sounds...a bit silly. If you're making a plea for social justice, it's probably a good idea not to sound like Laurence Olivier in Marathon Man.

Regardless of your opinion on "the aethetics of language" or however silly you think it sounds, if that's the pronouns someone prefers, that's the pronouns you should use.

[maiforpeace]

And yes I'm privileged, but I've still got a view on the aesthetics of language. I'd say 'ze' and 'zis' sounds...a bit silly. If you're making a plea for social justice, it's probably a good idea not to sound like Laurence Olivier in Marathon Man.

Regardless of your opinion on "the aethetics of language" or however silly you think it sounds, if that's the pronouns someone prefers, that's the pronouns you should use.

But, it irksthepurist in them!

Change is just so hard, isn't it. Especially changing for someone else's comfort. You have to be a saint to do that.

[irkthepurists]

Regardless of your opinion on "the aethetics of language" or however silly you think it sounds, if that's the pronouns someone prefers, that's the pronouns you should use.

When addressing/referring to one specific person who's made such a request, you mean? Well, yes, then it's just basic courtesy. Although I still think I'd use 'they/their', or change the syntax so I didn't have to use pronouns at all.

But I'm talking about situations where a pronoun is used in the abstract, rather than in reference to an actual person. For example:

'Before a lawyer addresses a courtroom, he or she has to ensure they are fully briefed on the facts.'

You can substitute 'they' for 'he or she' there...although you'd end up with two 'they's, so it's not ideal. If you don't want to use 'zir', what would be a good alternative?

[Pteryxx]

'Before a lawyer addresses a courtroom, he or she has to ensure they are fully briefed on the facts.'

You can substitute 'they' for 'he or she' there...although you'd end up with two 'they's, so it's not ideal. If you don't want to use 'zir', what would be a good alternative?

It's not like this never comes up, actually. Compare:

'Before a lawyer addresses a judge, he or she has to ensure he or she is fully briefed on the facts.'

Change it to, 'they have to ensure the judge is fully briefed...' etc. In your original sentence, I'd rearrange it so the double pronouns weren't necessary. (Besides, since when is "a courtroom" a "they" instead of "everyone" or some such? Yeesh. It'd be clearer with an example such as "an audience".)

[Grimalkin]

I don't really see people advocating for that type of measure to be taken, either. Especially since this site is in English, it'd be a little silly to discuss (in any other way than an intellectual exercise) how an entirely different language should go about changing.

We're English-centric here, because it's an English-speaking site.

I just want to point out that we should probably be looking at this site being English-centric as a limitation, not a feature.

Also, since this is shundread's thread, I don't see any problem with them discussing the issue of gender in other languages and how to deal with such. I'm not seeing any "this only works in English, and so we shouldn't talk about it because of other languages" or anything, which would be bad. But keeping all conversation English-centric comes with an assumption that everyone on the site has English as a first language, and that everyone here should speak English.

[Pteryxx]

Well, being English-centric also limits how much the commenting here can speak for other languages. I admit it's way over MY head.

[SubMor]

I'm a giant fan of linguistics and overcoming monolingualism, so I can totally get behind talking about other languages. The obvious problem there would be if someone wants to talk about a language no one else speaks.

But we have to be realistic: English is not "the norm" when it comes to gender and grammar. It'd be significantly harder (though not impossible) to implement gender-neutral language in languages with grammatical gender, but this whole issue is completely irrelevant in terms of Chinese, Japanese, and the like. Those that don't speak the language being discussed will have very little to add to those discussions (without Englishsplaining all over everything, that is).

So ultimately, it's certainly not the case that these forums are restricted to English only. We do have a shared language, though, and that colors the discussions we have. While I'm quite sure an interesting conversation could come of the de-genderification of Spanish, for example, those of us who don't speak Spanish probably have nothing to add to that conversation (barring other relevant qualifications).

[Galexty]

Although I still think I'd use 'they/their', or change the syntax so I didn't have to use pronouns at all.

If you use "they/their" when a person has specifically told you the pronouns they want, choosing to use "they/their" anyway is disrespectful. I am not a they, I am a ze.

[KatieJ]

MOD note: user has been banned for sockpuppetry [ Show ]

If you simply just refuse to learn a few new words, ze, zir, xe, xir - then just use they. Or ask directly.

That's great, except in that it's a language-centric solution. What do we do outside the English language?

The final solution - ask directly?

I speak a couple of other languages. Not nearly as well as English and my English isn't even that great. When I have any doubt about addressing anyone, or referring to anyone, I would ask them directly to be sure not to offend them.

Otherwise, in writing - consult an expert in your language.

Language is important. It is easy for the privileged to offend without even realising it, perhaps using idioms and language they simply take for granted.

Perhaps that is what you did by using the phrase 'the final solution'.

Of course the six million who were the subjects of that final solution can't comment.

[irkthepurists]

mod note, not appropriate [ Show ]

Right...who's going to do the 'ze final solution' joke then?

[Xanthë]

My gender identity is somewhere in the middle of being agender and female, and very slightly variable (genderfluid) on top of that, so while I’m okay with feminine pronouns, I prefer gender neutral ones and specifically the xe/xie/ze/zie ones are all pronounced with a [z] sound (exactly like the X in my ‘nym) — so provided the people concerned have passed their Trans* 101 training wheels and have an inkling of why it’s seriously upsetting to trans* people to misgender them, then I let them know my preference and will try to be encouraging in getting them to use them to refer to me.

However, as this thread makes obvious, there is no shortage of assholes in the world that it’s not my job to school in being polite to others by using the right pronouns, so I tend to skirt over people using ‘she’ if they can be convinced to use the singular they. I have a scale of good to bad misgendering infractions, and provided I can see effort being made by the person not to be an outright asshole to me, then I’m prepared to go with some of the ‘lesser good’ options.

MOD note: the user above who picked up a perhaps inopportune phrase from one of Mai’s posts and decided to take it to its offensive conclusion is, to all intents and purposes, the same user who has been banned here on two separate occasions, and xie has been banned again. (See how that gender neutral pronoun thing works? We don’t have good reason to suggest that any of the person’s nyms are actually indicative of their actual gender.)

Still wearing the mod hat: to irkthepurists, if your continuing presence in this thread will be to make jokes at the expense of other people who don’t fit the gender binary, I must confess I won’t be terribly unhappy about giving you an official warning. Gallows humour with a chaser of cis privilege is not exactly helpful here: you’ve had your fun, now please engage seriously or get outta da thread.

[Brad Hudson]

Once upon a time, I studied Navajo, which has genderless pronouns. It was a pretty easy transition to make. I'd love to see them used in English.

[shundread]

I'm a giant fan of linguistics and overcoming monolingualism, so I can totally get behind talking about other languages. The obvious problem there would be if someone wants to talk about a language no one else speaks.

But we have to be realistic: English is not "the norm" when it comes to gender and grammar. It'd be significantly harder (though not impossible) to implement gender-neutral language in languages with grammatical gender, but this whole issue is completely irrelevant in terms of Chinese, Japanese, and the like. Those that don't speak the language being discussed will have very little to add to those discussions (without Englishsplaining all over everything, that is).

So ultimately, it's certainly not the case that these forums are restricted to English only. We do have a shared language, though, and that colors the discussions we have. While I'm quite sure an interesting conversation could come of the de-genderification of Spanish, for example, those of us who don't speak Spanish probably have nothing to add to that conversation (barring other relevant qualifications).

Certainly, Finnish is a very unpopular language, I'm holding it up as one example of a language that is very weakly gendered. It does not go much beyond having different words for "man" or "woman", or a few male/female forms for a few words, most of which have gone in disuse.

Now, I tried my best to convey how adding genders to Portuguese and Russian is a harder task than doing so in English, and I'm trying to push the idea of stripping genders from languages on the basis of it being a more universal solution. While I get it that most people in the forum have no clue about these languages (hell, I can't even have a real conversation in Russian myself), there's a difference between speaking a language and talking about a language. Linguists do it all the time. And, although most people are not linguists either, it's not necessary to have a formal linguist's background to discuss the topic on the surface.

Outside this forum, there's around a quarter of a billion of people who speak Portuguese natively, and (if I understand correctly) a quarter of a billion of people who speak Russian as a first or second language. And these are only two (very big, I'll grant) gendered languages. There's a bunch of other gendered languages around. The numbers of Spanish language speakers, for example, is even higher, and they are going to have the same kinds of problems.

[SubMor]

It occurs to me that a number of people in this discussion might enjoy these.

They're a great way to get an idea of the kinds of issues that need to be overcome in order to de-gender languages with grammatical gender.

[Ginny]

shundread: When you talk about adding genders to a language vs. stripping genders from it, what do you see as the difference? In English, for example, you have to add a gender-neutral pronoun in order to strip gender from the language, since the only personal singular pronouns we have now are gendered. Similarly, from your description of Portugese above, I'd imagine that the way to make the language gender-neutral would be to add a different ending to gendered words and then let the gendered ones fall into disuse.