"Just a Joke" in action? (Derail from Bureaucracy)

[SubMor]

Mod edit: Handwritten Vogon poetry, a limerick of Buckle [ Show ]

Bureaucracy is a catastrophe
A waste of time for you and me

A form for formality
no tit nor tat nor cup of tea

it's elemental mediocrity
that's petty officiality

To understand bureaucracy
here's a degree in nonsensology

The bureaucrat's autocracy
infuses me with inordinacy

I'd rather follow astrology
Than deal with this bureaucracy.

/end rant

By the way, bureaucracy is a really hard word to spell... I copied and pasted.
So I was at the banks etc today and got annoyed... decided a poem would make me feel better. I'd quite enjoy it if anyone else had some lines to add about their truly wonderful dealings with the delightful world of bureaucracy!

As a Vogon, I must point out that your poetry is absolutely stunning!

In your honour:

There was a young lady called Buckle
Who lived life with calmness and chill
Until she dealt with a banker
who was a real wanker
and she ended up feeling quite ill.

[Glob the Funct]

[Eowyn Entwife]

slimy limerick et co quoted for evidence [ Show ]

Bureaucracy is a catastrophe
A waste of time for you and me

A form for formality
no tit nor tat nor cup of tea

it's elemental mediocrity
that's petty officiality

To understand bureaucracy
here's a degree in nonsensology

The bureaucrat's autocracy
infuses me with inordinacy

I'd rather follow astrology
Than deal with this bureaucracy.

/end rant

By the way, bureaucracy is a really hard word to spell... I copied and pasted.
So I was at the banks etc today and got annoyed... decided a poem would make me feel better. I'd quite enjoy it if anyone else had some lines to add about their truly wonderful dealings with the delightful world of bureaucracy!

As a Vogon, I must point out that your poetry is absolutely stunning!

In your honour:

There was a young lady called Buckle
Who lived life with calmness and chill
Until she dealt with a banker
who was a real wanker
and she ended up feeling quite ill.

Yeah, great "joke", positioned perfectly for the classic "But it was just a joke!" defense of the classic sexual harasser.

Cultural deconstruction for those who are not too familiar with the details of the role that certain types of limericks play in the English-speaking world (and BTW, this is the part about which the classic sexual harasser claims that it's all in my head, that I am the one with the problem...)

1) "There was a young lady..." is a classic start for a limerick with a sexual pun. DO NOT follow the links unless you want to read a pile of examples: http://www.anvari.org/shortjoke/Limeric ... -arse.html and one more at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_once ... d_versions

2) The use of the word "wanker" in the limerick makes the sexual connotations explicit.

There, deconstructed. That was easy. Then the conclusion:


3) Making such a limerick exclusively about any individual and/or in a dedicated safe space is sexual harassment and a violation of our rules.


End of story. The mods will likely be here soon, if they did not arrive already while I was typing this.

Gentle and respectful (((hugs))) to anyone who needs/wants.

[Buckle]

Oh goodness! Well I didn't take any offense from that limerick, since well all it said was that I was chill... and I certainly try to be!

But in light of what Eowyn has said, Glob maybe you should apologise and hide it under a trigger for members who do find it troubling. I'm assuming you meant it in good taste and weren't aware of the stigma. I certainly don't have any experience in that particular area so my opinion is only valid as the person being referred to.

[Flewellyn]

:P

This calls for the Feline of Ultimate Disambiguation:



Just...no.

[Glob the Funct]

Yeah, great "joke", positioned perfectly for the classic "But it was just a joke!" defense of the classic sexual harasser.

Please be quite clear here.
Are you accusing me of sexual harassment?

[EllieMurasaki]

Not being Eowyn or Flewellyn, I can't say for certain whether they are, but for damn sure I am. Knock it the fuck off.

[SubMor]

Yeah, great "joke", positioned perfectly for the classic "But it was just a joke!" defense of the classic sexual harasser.

Please be quite clear here.
Are you accusing me of sexual harassment?

Let me be quite clear: I don't care whether she was accusing you of that or not. She highlighted a possible interpretation that you should care about and actively seek to avoid. You responding like this? All confrontational-like? Not an acceptable response in either case. Send that train right back to the damn station. Now.

[Eowyn Entwife]

...Glob maybe you should apologise...

That was good advice. Xe did not take it.

Ellie then drew the same conclusion as I did, so I have nothing to add.

/derail

[Glob the Funct]

Yeah, great "joke", positioned perfectly for the classic "But it was just a joke!" defense of the classic sexual harasser.

Please be quite clear here.
Are you accusing me of sexual harassment?

Let me be quite clear: I don't care whether she was accusing you of that or not.

I wasn't asking you.
If she chooses not to answer, then sobeit.
For the record there was no intention to sexually harass.

[SubMor]

That wasn't the backing of the train up to the station. At all. Here's a day off to figure out what you want to say next to resolve the situation.

[ischemgeek]

Whether or not you intended to be sexually harassing does not negate that several people have interpreted your actions as sexually harassing. Part of rape culture is that harassment gets normalized so it doesn't seem like harassment - it's "just a joke" after all.

That doesn't fly here: 4 people - including two mods - have told you that your behavior comes off as sexual harassment. Count me as number 5. The correct thing to do here is not to double down, but to at the very least, try to figure out why we take that interpretation of your post (hint: Read this and all of the things linked in it. When you're done, move on to this).

[SubMor]

The above exchange took place in this thread, which was not located in Information and Answers. Please make note of this difference and adjust your responses accordingly.

That doesn't fly here: 4 people - including two mods - have told you that your behavior comes off as sexual harassment.

To clarify, I'm not saying that Glob's behavior necessarily constitutes sexual harassment. What I am saying is that responding to "hey that thing you said looked to me like sexual harassment" by becoming hostile and implying that that perception is a horrible crime is completely unacceptable. If such an implication is inadvertent, that's an excellent opportunity to clarify and/or apologize as the situation calls for. Not to rely on "omg someone thinks I might have done a bad thing, what a bully!"

And responding to a mod who's telling you that your behavior isn't okay with "I wasn't asking you?" Well, that's asking for it.

[Eowyn Entwife]

Thank you SubMor.

There is one more dimension of this "joke" that I found added to its potential for harm: it targeted a lone member of a minuscule minority -- AFAIK, we have no other active member who lives in Southern Africa. I do not know Buckle's first language, and I cannot guess, seeing as her posted English is excellent, but it could easily be something other than English. Making "fun" of a person in a language where they (potentially) cannot "hear" all the nuances is a really shitty way of treating people -- having moved about between language regions when I was a child, I have both seen and experienced this type of bullying, and it is disgusting. It's kicking down hard on an axis of privilege.

[ischemgeek]

To clarify: I'm not saying that Glob was intending to be sexually harrassing, nor do I think xie is a sexual harasser in the technical sense of the term (i.e. someone who engages in a pattern of sexual bullying or coersion - *ETA* someone like that quite frankly wouldn't last long without being permabanned here*/ETA*). My issue was that when taken to task over problematic behavior, a person should seek to understand why hir behavior is problematic rather than double down.

This instance came off as sexual harassment, which does not necessarily mean Glob is a sexual harasser or that it was intentional sexual harassment. Just that the joke in question raised red flags to a lot of us on the board.

[irkthepurists]

Yeah, great "joke", positioned perfectly for the classic "But it was just a joke!" defense of the classic sexual harasser.

Please be quite clear here.
Are you accusing me of sexual harassment?

Let me be quite clear: I don't care whether she was accusing you of that or not. She highlighted a possible interpretation that you should care about and actively seek to avoid. You responding like this? All confrontational-like?

To be fair, I don't think he was being confrontational here - he was just asking for clarification wasn't he? I found the nuance of Eowyn's objection a bit unclear too.

[piegasm]

To be fair, I don't think he was being confrontational here - he was just asking for clarification wasn't he? I found the nuance of Eowyn's objection a bit unclear too.

First, don't attribute motives (good or bad) to other people. That's essentially gaslighting. Do not do it. Secondly, it reads to me as an attempt to intimidate Eowyn into retracting her post. It hints at pending righteous indignation if she fails to do so. Not grasping all the nuances of Eowyn's objection is not an excuse for failing to walk the comment back and apologize for inadvertently saying something sexual harassment-ish which was SubMor's whole point.

[irkthepurists]

Secondly, it reads to me as an attempt to intimidate Eowyn into retracting her post.

Not at all - I just found the nature of the objection unclear. Was it dirty limericks per se that were being objected to, or the fact that Glob's one referred to a specific person? Was Glob being directly accused of harassing Buckle, or was it the suggestion of domestic violence in the limerick that rang alarm bells?

[SubMor]

Mod edit: Reductio ad Hitlerium, but with a different Nazi? Your begging the question does not sway me, and your appeal to emotion does not move me. [ Show ]

Cheapening the definition of harassment to such a degree should be a source of shame and this kind of hyper-offence is Portlandia style feminist bookstore feminism.

This kind of thing is supportive of patriarchal culture by way of contributing to the stereotype of feminist issues as nothing more than bowing to the desires of the hyper-sensitive for the power to silence anyone at will.

[smhll]

The purpose of the forum is not to share rhyming couplets. If you wish to make a point, please make an effort to be clear. Otherwise one is just being an odd waste of time.

[ischemgeek]

Objecting to jokes with sexist overtones isn't hypersensitive, given the documented harm they do, Robert_S.

Also, criticism =/= silencing at will. Glob has the right to free speech, and we, being also possessed of that right, have the right to criticize hir speech.

[hyperdeath]

Cheapening the definition of harassment to such a degree should be a source of shame and this kind of hyper-offence is Portlandia style feminist bookstore feminism.

No one is saying that this is an egregious example of sexual harassment. They're pointing out that making someone the subject of a limerick that includes a potentially sexual reference is creepy.

[ceepolk]

Robert_S. You're back.

And I remember you.

Stop this, right now. It's debate club bullshit and it is so basic.

If you don't like not being able to harass women just because they're women and they made their existence know, well too bad. there are plenty of other places on the internet where you can support harassment of women, just because they're women.

but you can't do it here.

[Orenda]

Hyperdeath wrote: "No one is saying that this is an egregious example of sexual harassment. They're pointing out that making someone the subject of a limerick that includes a potentially sexual reference is creepy."

ceepolk wrote: "If you don't like not being able to harass women just because they're women and they made their existence know, well too bad. there are plenty of other places on the internet where you can support harassment of women, just because they're women."


Since I've been here I've tried hard to learn the rules and I've been trying to get a feel for what are the unspoken rules of the forum.

I'm finding it very confusing when an admin says one thing and then a mod seems, to me, to be saying something contradictory.

Could someone help clarify this for me.

[ischemgeek]

Hyperdeath was addressing Glob, a relative newbie.

Ceepolk was addressing Robert_S, who has a history.

Different people, different responses. No contradiction.