If you're here to preach veganism read this first.

[Kassiane]

This has happened a few times. And everytime it does, it ends up being a whole steaming pile of angry because generally, the preaching is a bunch of ableist, classist BS (whether you're aware that you're speaking from privilege is irrellevant. I'm getting there).

So. Before you go there, a challenge for you: Make a vegan diet plan that meets my needs in terms of nutrition, caloric density, affordability, and ease of putting shit on a plate to eat it. This is a concrete exercise to get you actively thinking about how to concretely implement what you are saying "everyone should do" rather than just assuming everyone can do it if they try hard enough. Convince me.

Needs are utterly non negotiable, with fuckups being from very unpleasant to fatally catastrophic:

-2500-3000 calories a day
-I don't actually have that large a stomach, so this is a challenge if I'm mainlining lard.
-20g or less carbs a day (and that is pushing it), which means all but 80cal are from fat & protein
-no soy
-I'm a champion at setting things on fire. As in, have exploded safety glass.
-must be able to transport to school & work. on the bus.
-no elaborate prep, as I get confused & then pass out before I eat the food. I already work, do school, spend 4h a day on the bus, and have sequencing difficulties. Can't do it.
-if it's slimy (or stringy. or a particular kind of mushy. banana texture is right out) I can't eat it. I throw up (in my case, potentially fatally catastrophic)
-I live on SSI & student loans.

[qmartindale]

Is it okay to advocate for people to reduce their consumption of animal products while acknowledging that some people, including you, may be unable to do so?

[Kassiane]

Is it okay to advocate for people to reduce their consumption of animal products while acknowledging that some people, including you, may be unable to do so?

Can you do it without being ableist, classist, other -ists, & sanctimonious? There's your answer.

*I* am gunna get pissed off pretty much whenever anyone demands I change my diet for their ethics until & unless they make a concrete plan to make it happen. I am not everyone.

[Mocha]

qmartindale,

I get that this is something that may be important to you, but realize that besides the issues Kassiane brought up, many people, including myself, have been food policed to the point that almost any comment on diet can cause a panic attack.

I don't want to say "never speak about these things!", but I honestly can't think of a way to advocate for something like this without bringing up all these issues along with it.

[Setar]

qmartindale,

I get that this is something that may be important to you, but realize that besides the issues Kassiane brought up, many people, including myself, have been food policed to the point that almost any comment on diet can cause a panic attack.

I don't want to say "never speak about these things!", but I honestly can't think of a way to advocate for something like this without bringing up all these issues along with it.

this, seriously. I can't deal with food policing. I already had way more than enough of it from my mother who pulled the bullshit "force-feed the kid something they don't like while offering them a treat afterward" on me despite how I was fucking choking my way through shit. I deal with way more than enough half-insulted comments because people want to feed me reject-listed shit or I'm sliding reject-list shit to the side on my plate that more often than not I eat before going to friends' places, or order pizza or something, just so I don't have to go through that.

And what's more, eating is one of the few things I regularly enjoy. I simply cannot deal with telling someone that I literally cannot eat shit (that's what reject foods are to me, shit, universally) and have them throw that back in my face as 'something that can be overcome' or shit like that. No, it can't. Not when the mere smell of foods on the reject list will always make me gag and retch. Nuh uh. Not. Fucking. Happening. If you think it can be overcome then you try sticking your face in the toilet after you take a dump, see if you can 'overcome' that.

I seriously, seriously, seriously do not get why survival has to be torture for me because to have it otherwise offends the abstract ethereal moral sensibilities of some sanctimonious hipster (who also can afford the hyper-inflated prices in the 'ethical'/'natural'/etc section).

[irkthepurists]

There's an awful lot of privilege-blindness among finger-wagging foodies, to be sure. 'You're putting sugar on your food? You should pop down to your local artisan bakery and pick some organic honey like we do.'

It was something that annoyed me about the criticisms of Supersize Me, actually - people said 'Dur, you're not supposed to eat McDonald's every day!', completely overlooking the fact that, for many people, there's not a huge amount of choice.

[rickymooston]

K interesting OP

First of all, lots of vegan diets are unhealthy. My favorite
is the so called fruitsrian diet.

Rich or poor, whether you have a disability or not, these
diets can cause a large variety of health problems such as rickits.
One shoukd remember that a lot of poisons are "natural"; such as
several deafly mushrooms and the like.

Secondly, i think the organic craze is bs. It is an excusr to jack up food
prices. I will admit however, when i went to china, that the
chicken, which was free range because people grow their own chickens
tastes better

In india, one of the poorer countries, tons of people are vegetarians
but they eat diary products and in particular milk. Their diet is
balanced and healthy

I am sure, a creative person, who doesnt do organic and who cooks
her food coukd have a healthy vegan diet, if she wanted too

I try to eat a balanced diet. mine has meat in it. I dont
buy orgamic stuff

I dont mind when people preach dumb things. I am under no obligation
to follow their bad advice.

[rickymooston]

There's an awful lot of privilege-blindness among finger-wagging foodies, to be sure. 'You're putting sugar on your food? You should pop down to your local artisan bakery and pick some organic honey like we do.'

It was something that annoyed me about the criticisms of Supersize Me, actually - people said 'Dur, you're not supposed to eat McDonald's every day!', completely overlooking the fact that, for many people, there's not a huge amount of choice.

Fast food is expensive; a false dichotomy exists here

One can, by the way, eat a healthy meal at mcdonalds

[irkthepurists]

I dont mind when people preach dumb things. I am under no obligation to follow their bad advice.

I'm quite lucky, in that I don't seem to encounter any 'vegangelists'. From the experiences on here, though, it seems they didn't die out in the 1980s as I thought.

We had a horse meat scandal in the UK last week, where traces of equine flesh were found in value-range burgers. This, of course, meant a field day for the foodie finger-waggers: 'Of course, we only buy locally-sourced organic beef...' Yes, yes, and you only buy crisps if the packet looks like a the front cover of a novel.

[ceepolk]

you mean Tyrell's?

[GreatBlueHeron]

And to add, if a vegan supporter can preach without being fatphobic. Healthy Eating Proponents, meatless or not, have a history of being incredibly fatphobic.

Damn, buying nutrient-rich food is way more expensive than buying calorie-dense, low nutrient food. Going meatless is even more expensive. I can't afford to eat someone else's diet and I have no desire to stop eating meat.

[EllieMurasaki]

I'd like a general reduction in consumption of animal products, but I haven't figured out how to achieve that for my household yet--best I can do is cook vegetarian the few chances I have to cook for the family and keep looking for sufficiently cheap open-package-add-water-microwave meals that say 'vegetarian' on the package. Fine hypocrite I'd be if I suggested anyone else try to reduce their consumption of animal products, whether it's a thing they're capable of doing or not.

[irkthepurists]

you mean Tyrell's?

Indeed. Look at them all - it's like the Booker longlist.

The gourmet-fication of crisps surely signals the end of days. I saw 'sea salt and chardonnay wine vinegar' the other day.

[Onamission5]

And to add, if a vegan supporter can preach without being fatphobic. Healthy Eating Proponents, meatless or not, have a history of being incredibly fatphobic.

Damn, buying nutrient-rich food is way more expensive than buying calorie-dense, low nutrient food. Going meatless is even more expensive. I can't afford to eat someone else's diet and I have no desire to stop eating meat.

Yes to the fat phobia.

Regarding cost, I think that people forget that food prices can vary wildly by region even within the same country. They can vary quite a bit by store even within the same town. Accessibility is a thing, and two of the largest barriers to accessibility of food are cost and location. Just because *I* have access by car to a discount grocery that sells scratch and dent organic goods and local produce on the cheap does not mean the person to whom I am speaking on the internet also has the same access where they live, even the person who lives next door to me may not have the same access I do, let alone the same nutritional requirements.

derailish [ Show ]

I was thinking about this when someone mentioned in another thread that refrigeration was a non-necessity because it was better to buy what you're going to eat each day and prepare. Where I grew up during the first half of my childhood, in the middle of Western rural nowhere, that would have been impossible. The closest grocery was 5 miles away and my family couldn't usually afford to shop there, too expensive. Once a month we went 25 miles into town and stocked up on bulk supplies, the rest of the time we lived on food stores which had come from hunting, from the animals we raised, or from the garden. It was absolutely crucial that we be able to store food stuffs long term in order to make it through the winter. There was no way for our family to make a quick run to the grocery every day. It was not possible. We had to stockpile. Without refrigeration, we'd have starved or become sick from improperly stored food. Some of the families in our area had more resources and could afford to run up to that grocery for cheese or milk every day, we were not one of them. Rural living, there are food deserts there, too. Living vegan? Not an option. No way we could have grown enough grains and fresh plant foods to survive or afforded the cost of purchasing a pre-made plant based diet, and we had over a full acre of garden space to work with. My stepdad had a very physical occupation and he needed, I say *needed* a large store of slow burning calories from high protein foods, the kind one does not get cheaply from vegetables, nuts, beans, fruits and grains. His nutritional requirements were purely occupational, other people's requirements are physical. Neither are less legitimate than the other.

[Kassiane]

Yeah I don't see anyone ever meeting this challenge.

And have decided anyone who tries to tell me to reduce my meat intake can go fuck themselves.

[ischemgeek]

"response to Onamission5's derail" [ Show ]

That was me, and I think you misremember the comment, Onamission5: my point in that comment was that refridgeration is a non-necessity if and only if the infrastructure to purchase your perishables as you'll use them (which does lead to reduced wasteage) is available. So, yeah, in your situation and in mine (food desert for those who don't have cars, of which I am one), refridgeration is a necessity. If I had a vehicle to drive to the market or grocery, it would become a non-necessity.

Also: Reducing meat intake for the vast majority of people in affluent societies compared to their normal meat intake would be a good thing for health and wellness. People like my parents eat way more meat than they need to, to the point that it's probably harmful to their overall wellness (both my parents had high cholesterol and blood pressure at a relatively young age of onset, for example). Personally, I'm kind of glad I've gone through this cash-strapped period in my life, since it taught me how to make a healthier, mostly-balanced (I eat too much starch and not enough veg because even frozen veg-other-than-onions-which-are-cheaper-but-can't-be-lived-off starts at $5.50/lb here since I can't buy in bulk as I don't have a big freezer, whereas starchy foods are more like $1.50-$2/lb) diet. If not, I'd likely be eating about 5-6x the amount of meat I do eat.

[qmartindale]

I hear you Kassiane when you say that people who tell you to reduce your meat intake don't understand your situation and don't have a solution to offer. I understand that people who preach at you on the subject make you angry. I hear you saying using language like "everyone should" is hurtful to people, like you, who can't.

I'm well aware that some advocates of animal welfare, animal rights, vegetarianism and/or veganism fail to care enough about the people they're advocating to, and propagate many different social injustices in their advocacy. My central problem with people's response to this harm is when people are willing to write off the good causes of bad advocates.

Kassiane, you used the phrase "their ethics." I don't know how you feel about animal welfare in general as opposed to people demanding you adopt a vegan diet. How can I try and persuade you that the things that matter to me are important without saying that you are not important?

I'm also somewhat confused by the use of the term "food policing." As an example, I believe that the production of veal or foie gras in the US involves the unnecessary infliction of suffering and that reducing the demand for those products will reduce suffering. I think those beliefs are well supported by fact - though activism has resulted in reducing some of the worst harm. Is expressing those beliefs or trying to persuade others of their truth "food policing?"

[Buckle]

I'm certain their must be a way of being able to discuss vegetarianism/veganism without food policing to anyone.

One aspect of this conversation is that many people can't afford it. There are many other aspects though.

Surely it's like saying:
We should all use public transport to reduce car pollution and traffic congestion. Unfortunately not everyone can due to lack of infrastructure, crime on public transport etc etc

I don't know, I just feel that the lack of availability of vegan foods is only one part of the argument and it's sad to see the whole thing dismissed because of it.

[irkthepurists]

Is expressing those beliefs or trying to persuade others of their truth "food policing?"

No, but I think it's a tone thing - as soon as you adopt the moral high ground or start lecturing or pressurising people, then you've crossed the line.

There is, of course, nothing wrong with simply giving people the facts. Depends how you do it though, doesn't it? You can point out that foie gras involves animal cruelty without insinuating anything about a person's own diet.

[Eowyn Entwife]

...I'm also somewhat confused by the use of the term "food policing."

For me, and a number of people whose blog posts and/or forum posts I have read ever since RDF, "food policing" is a term that connects tightly to experiences of child abuse and neglect, where (one of) the weapon(s) of choice against the child was food.

TW! Parents and other grownups using food related things abusively [ Show ]

I cannot digest a number of vegetables due to a congenital, inoperable condition (which was finally diagnosed when I was 24). My maternal grandmother apparently never believed in my problems. One day when we were already far into our teens, she proudly explained to my middle sister that she (grandma) had been hiding onion in almost all the food she offered me "And she (me) never even seemed to notice." My sister warned me as soon as she could, and after that I was extremely careful about what I ate at grandma's.

What Dear Grandma probably did not know was that I had often been violently ill, with painful and embarrassing stomach cramps, after we had visited her. And my father routinely yelled at me when I was thus ill: he told me I was disgusting, smelly etc. and called me "a pig", among other things.

My parents never took me to a doctor. Instead, every school year I was subjected to yet another experimental diet - sometimes they informed my school that I had to eat vegetarian food, sometimes I was supposed to eat protein-rich, sometimes high fiber, sometimes low fiber, sometimes some weird supplements... and of course none of that helped any, because the root cause of the trouble was not known. And if they caught me eating something that was not supposed to be on my menu that year, I got a yelling for sure and sometimes got slapped or dragged around from my hair (one of the reasons why I cut my hair short - being pulled around from long, strong hair when one is almost grownup-size HURTS).

This^^ is just a small part of how food was used against me when I was a child and teen. Consequently, people commenting (negatively OR positively) about what I can or cannot eat has been a pretty sizeable trigger, until I met my hubby, who took cooking for me as a positive, creative challenge. The last soon 20 years with him have been extremely healing (also) on the food front.


Edit: the last paragraph + some more detail

[Mocha]

qmartindale,

Food policing is a thing that happens when people think they have some divine right to tell other people what they should and shouldn't eat.

TW for food policing and bullying [ Show ]

For me, this generally took the form of people throwing my lunch on the floor, since I was "a stupid diabetic who was just too damn lazy to cure herself" but other methods of food shaming were used, such as trying to tell me "the facts", making snarky comments about my food, and telling me I was committing "food suicide".

I also have a thing with textures, to the point where I will gag and throw up if the offending food is in my mouth too long, and I also have a thing about my food touching other food, but I'm trying to work on that one (mainly because it's so damn impractical). But, when people find out about these "quirks" (because that's what they call them), they want to blindfold me and force feed me things to see if I'm "really that bad".

It became so bad that I stopped eating lunch in front of other people and would only really eat a half meal each day. I freeze and nearly puke if someone so much as mentions what I'm eating or asks what I've eaten.

[Avenel]

Food's a big deal for me. I'm lucky, I'm a natural omnivore. I eat, and like just about everything. I'm not in Anthony Bourdain's league, but I have eaten more wierd foods than anyone I know. Food is such a passion that I am going to culinary school to pursue a career as a chef.

I've made the personal decision to reduce (not eliminate) meat in my diet. My wife and I have subscribed to a CSA, which gets us a box of fresh, locally grown produce every two weeks. We like the variety, and the quality. It challenges me as a chef to use everything, and I love to push the envelope.

But, I would never judge the lifestyle of others. I know many of you have issues that are not choices. But, even if they were, it wouldn't matter. How we choose to eat is such a complex maze of options and limitations, unique unto ourselves. I can't tell you the right way to negotiate your maze. If asked, I may be able to give helpful suggestions, then again, I may not.

If, either as a friend or as a professional, I found myself cooking for one of you with limitations, I would listen. I would accept what you said, make suggestions, and negotiate the best possible menu that meets your needs.

[GreatBlueHeron]

Food policing for me is when people sound off about certain foods that are "bad" and that those "bad" foods lead to teh death fats (obesity). I'm fat, and I feel bad when I buy something in the store that the food police thinks I shouldn't eat. It pisses me off that anyone believes they have a right to judge me and treat me like shit because of what I do with my own body.

[ischemgeek]

Food policing was a thing in my family. And my school. More examples for those who are interested in learning about what we mean by food policing, though I'm tired and in a hurry so can't guarantee they'll be especially eloquent:

"TW: food policing & bullying" [ Show ]

- In my parents' house, all food was either "good" or "bad". The standards on what made a "good" food seemed to vary week to week and sometimes even day to day, but in general consistently "good" foods were things with calorie densities on the order of lettuce. "bad" foods were pretty much everything else. My sister and I would be ridiculed for daring to like things that children will like - candy, etc.

- My likes and dislikes were dictated to me on the food front. "You don't like that," my mother would say to me, of something she didn't want me to eat. Even if I did like it. Attempts to eat it anyway because I was hungry or whatever were met with hand slaps. "You like that!" my mother would say to me, of something she wanted me to eat. Even if I found it revolting. Refusal to eat it was met with meal withholding. My mother was not as bad as a friend of hers, who starved me for over three days because I refused to eat mac & cheese (and, yeah, I still hate mac&cheese).

- I was never allowed to follow my body's food needs. If I wanted to eat before supper, I wasn't "really" hungry and I'd spoil my appetite. Even on days when my mother wouldn't pull herself away from the television until she felt hungry around 9PM. If I wasn't hungry at supper, well that didn't matter because it was supper and I damn well better clean my plate.

- I once had a teacher throw out my lunch because she didn't think it was healthy enough. Apparently starving = better than PB&J and dunkaroos.

Bullying can sometimes use same techniques as food policing while not being food policing: kids at school would ruin my lunch, but it was not food policing that motivated them, but garden-variety bullying. They enjoyed seeing me go hungry, especially the ones who knew that if my mother was in a mood again, I wouldn't eat until 9 or 10 that night.

[rickymooston]

K hope can ask you about your diet needs. For the
record this is not because i care what u eat but because
i dont understand your disability in context of this discussion fully

1. Why the limit on carbs?

2. Are you allergic to soy?

3. What causes the mushy issue? Allergies too? ...?

I have had friends with severe food allergies。 A friend of mine
was almost allergic to everything. She rotated her diet a lot.