Suicide and privilege

[rumblestiltsken]

This is a thought I have had kicking around for a bit,

We often hear anti-feminists say that men have way higher suicide (completion - for the topic at hand I will ignore this distinction) rates than women. This is true. They use this to suggest men are marginalised, or something.

I have another interpretation, and would love some feedback. If anyone has links to writings on the topic I would love to read them.

Looking at suicide statistics, it is not just men. White people. Rich people, as opposed to middle class people. Young people.
But also LGBT, particularly trans people. Poor people. Older people. Displaced minorities (like Native Americans, Indigenous Australians).

This seems like there is not so much a correlation with oppression, but a correlation with extremity of position on any axis of privilege. Whether a person is the most oppressed or the most privileged on any particular axis significantly increases risk of completed suicide.

I am not sure why this would be so. The thought that comes to mind is that a person who is extremely privileged on one or more axis may actually feel disconnected from society by that privilege. The trope of billionaires looking down on the huddled masses might be relevant. That disconnection and isolation from wider society may play a big part.

The other reason I think that could be true is that jobs that require and teach seperation from others also have higher suicide rates. Police and doctors for example (particularly psychiatrists) commit suicide at high levels. Prostitutes do too, although that is probably multi-factorial. These professions all require an emotional barrier between worker and public for the person to function.

Any thoughts or links? If this was true, it is a good answer to the MRAs, and perhaps also a very poweful argument for egalitarianism on a social/political level.

[Kate from Iowa]

When looking at suicide data, it's been found that method matters. The numbers compared need to be compared by how the suicide is committed/attempted, not just that it is committed. So if 98% of men comitting suicide are using guns as opposed to 40% of women, 80% of transgendered women and 30% of transgendered men, the actual comparison needs to be percentage of men/women/transwomen/transmen using guns, rather than men dying/women dying. Some methods are more effective than others, and not taking methodology into account has caused quite a few problems in any number of studies where statistics are involved, which means that some pretty bad info is all that really ever gets to the laypeople.

Edit - Sorry if this seems like a derail, it's not intended to. I understand what you're trying to say/ask, but it's a bit like comparing razors and depilatory creams. You can't say 70% of men buy razors as opposed to 12% of women buying razors, because there are numerous ways to get rid of hair, many of which are far more prevalent among women as opposed to men, just as suicide via gun is far more prevalent among men as opposed to women. You need to compare razors to razors, waxing to waxing, sugaring to sugaring, threading to threading, etc. before you can even get an idea of what the actual numbers for comparison are.

[Catherine]

Sadly in the UK the suicide rate amongst trans people prior to and during transition is thought to be roughly 30% Thankfully post transition and surgery this drops significantly and is thought to be less than the general population. (unfortunately I don't have references for this comes from a conversation with my gender psych)

[rumblestiltsken]

Totally agree Kate, I tried to acknowledge that issue in the opening line, although I was a bit ambiguous. I kinda see that distinction as given, and already use it as a rebuttal point but wanted to think about this different idea.

Catherine - it is a tragedy isn't it. The murder rate is at least 10 times that of cis people too.

[Catherine]

Is more than a tragedy, it is thought that more than 90% of trans people have considered suicide. Completely ridiculous but I actually sometimes feel guilty that I haven't done so, which I can never get my head around.

Luckily in the UK the murder rate isn't so high. It is mostly trans women of colour in the states or south america that suffer the huge casualties in this area. Though there have been a few trans women murdered in the UK in the past few years.

[ceepolk]

It is important to look at the statistics of attempts alongside completions, I think. And I'd also like to see the statistics for significant ideation, as well.

i think the observation that suicide happens on the extremes is interesting, and that work that enforces an emotional disconnection from others increases risk - I never saw it put that way, but yeah, good catch there.

[tiny]

If I remember correctly, suicide attempts are 3:2 in women vs men, and completed suicide is 3:2 in men vs women.

So women attempt suicide more often, but still more men than women die of suicide.

I read somewhere that it has to do with violence being discouraged in women, but I'm not sure how that has anything to do with this.

[sondosia]

Perhaps this has to do with the fact that suicide is correlated, obviously, with things like stress and depression. Even the very privileged can be very stressed, and perhaps they are more likely to be so (for instance, the CEO compared to the accountant, computer programmer, or research scientist).

This doesn't mean, though, that privilege causes suicide; just that it's correlated with things that do.

Just my two cents.

[Xisor]

Perhaps accurate, I'd not be entirely surprised by this correlation standing up to further scrutiny. It tallies with what I've heard of the statistics here in Scotland at least: Suicide is the biggest killer of young men. Arguably good riddance to the privileged*, but on the flip-side there's concerns for 'second order' alienation: alienation and prejudice felt within those who arguably are the privileged. It's difficult to measure or speculate on, largely because it's surely on a vastly lesser scale than any other social injustices.

It's a topic that sits particularly high in my awareness, but then like atheism on its own (and scepticism as a corollary/overarching thought), it's perhaps the most obvious 'in' I have with A+: being a straight white man, there's not a huge amount I can offer on other topics (e.g. sexism, racism) beyond simply educating myself and influencing my peers.

* This statement has been withdrawn. See below.

[rumblestiltsken]

Sendosia - absolutely, you could be right. That is certainly the fallback position.

Stress may be the answer although I struggle to see what stress young black men don't face, that young white men do face.

If it exists, I am not sure the effect would be caused by privilege, rather be an emergent property of thinking on some level that you are different from those around you. I know anecdotally from several people that until they recognised their privilege they didn't know why they felt so ... psychically ill. It really was making them sick. (I feel like this paragraph gets dangerously close to a "but men suffer too" argument. Sorry).

I wonder if anyone has ideas on how to explore this? There is lots of high detail stats out there (although the job stats are spotty).

[Brad]

Arguably good riddance to the privileged

The FUCK?!?

[Blues]

This thread comes perilously close to dismissing out of hand statistics that don't support the ideology. Men and women are indeed even on suicide attempts, but as a lot of suicide attempts can be seen as a 'cry for help' I'd still prefer to use the completed suicide statistic as an indication of how many people really, seriously were aiming to kill themselves.

Anyway, the suicide rate is 3:1 men to women in my country. It goes all the way up to 5:1 in younger and older demographics.

If I had to say why I'd guess that it's because men are less likely to seek help on mental health issues. Speaking of my own experience, it took a public psychotic break to get me anywhere near a hospital because I didn't want to admit I had a problem. There's the idea that as a man you shouldn't admit of your weaknesses.

I went to a private boarding school (just in case you were unsure of my level of privilege) that was rocked by a suicide cluster. The boys that killed themselves were the most popular, wealthiest kids at the school. I never figured it out. Perhaps when life is as good as they tell you it gets, telling yourself 'don't worry, it'll get better', doesn't mean anything. I have no idea.

[Tansy]

This is just my hypothesis. I may be completely wrong.
It occurs to me that higher suicide rates among men may be related to the ways in which patriarchal gender roles hurt men. Men in our society are socialised not to show "weakness" or emotion, and to just "tough it out" when they're sick/depressed/etc. As Blue said above, this can mean that men are discouraged from seeking help for problems like depression, because to admit to being depressed is seen by some gender-role enforcers as a sign of "weakness" or effeminacy. The result may be that men who suffer from problems such as depression do not receive the help and treatment they need, and may be more likely to commit suicide as a result.
As I said, I'm speculating here. Does anyone know of any research on this issue?

[rumblestiltsken]

Blues -

This thread does nothing of the sort. It openly accepts the statistics and discusses them. Read the OP again, I actually intentionally avoided discussing 'attempts' and only focussed on completions. Others have brought it up, but no-one has dismissed the opening thesis. What did you read, and more importantly why did you interpret it that way?

'Cry for help' is dismissive at best. You are doing exactly what you wrongly complain about. Women for a mix of reasons choose less fatal methods of suicide that they believe will kill them. Does anyone really think cutting their wrists or overdosing is not life-threatening?

There is a subset of suicide that occurs in public or semi-public spaces, or with an actual 'cry for help' where someone is informed of the event in time to prevent completion, but this happens with male suicide too. The difference between genders and rates of completion is largely method related (traditionally men use guns and rope, women use knives and pills).

Tansy -

Your speculation is spot on, it is a well recognised phenomenon. Most of the work being done to prevent male suicide is tryng to increase access to and utilisation of services.
I am not sure the same can be said for 'whiteness' or 'wealth' as examples, as the most privileged in those groups are also the best serviced group regarding their health. Especially re: mental health.

I was just considering whether the whole kaboodle might have a single common feature, that of disconnection. I am still mulling it over, but might do a bit of a literature search into it in the next few weeks.

[tiny]

If I had to say why I'd guess that it's because men are less likely to seek help on mental health issues. Speaking of my own experience, it took a public psychotic break to get me anywhere near a hospital because I didn't want to admit I had a problem. There's the idea that as a man you shouldn't admit of your weaknesses.

So another flipside of the patriarchy for men?

Perhaps when life is as good as they tell you it gets, telling yourself 'don't worry, it'll get better', doesn't mean anything. I have no idea.

From my own experience I'd say that it's an aggravating factor when everybody tells you how good you have it, how lucky you are and how you have no reason whatsoever to feel anything else but complete happiness day in, day out.
Minimisation is always a problem when it comes to mental health, but when you have 'everything' on a material level, it maybe leads to a state where none of your complaints are ever taken as something more serious than a spoiled, pampered brat throwing a hissy fit.

[Cipher]

Arguably good riddance to the privileged

The FUCK?!?

Yeah, I'm with you there - I missed that post. I mean, holy shit.

[Nicko]

Arguably good riddance to the privileged ...

Arguably, yes. As in, anyone who is not a sociopath would argue with this.

If I remember correctly, suicide attempts are 3:2 in women vs men, and completed suicide is 3:2 in men vs women.

So women attempt suicide more often, but still more men than women die of suicide.

I read somewhere that it has to do with violence being discouraged in women, but I'm not sure how that has anything to do with this.

Men choose more violent - and therefore more effective - means of suicide. Factor in a substantial portion of single-vehicle "accidents" and the rate goes up even higher. Back when I was toying with the idea, my car and a cliff seemed the most reliable method.

Does anyone really think cutting their wrists or overdosing is not life-threatening?

Well, I can think of two women off the top of my head - friends of my sister - who should have worked out after the first couple of attempts that it is less life threatening than many methods. Anecdotal evidence, I know.

I went to a private boarding school (just in case you were unsure of my level of privilege) that was rocked by a suicide cluster. The boys that killed themselves were the most popular, wealthiest kids at the school. I never figured it out. Perhaps when life is as good as they tell you it gets, telling yourself 'don't worry, it'll get better', doesn't mean anything. I have no idea.

Perhaps the things that our society tells us "should" make us happy, really don't?

This is just my hypothesis. I may be completely wrong.
It occurs to me that higher suicide rates among men may be related to the ways in which patriarchal gender roles hurt men. Men in our society are socialised not to show "weakness" or emotion, and to just "tough it out" when they're sick/depressed/etc. As Blue said above, this can mean that men are discouraged from seeking help for problems like depression, because to admit to being depressed is seen by some gender-role enforcers as a sign of "weakness" or effeminacy. The result may be that men who suffer from problems such as depression do not receive the help and treatment they need, and may be more likely to commit suicide as a result.
As I said, I'm speculating here. Does anyone know of any research on this issue?

I think that Tansy has put her finger on it; I'd agree with pretty much everything there. Particularly the bit about the need for some good research.

But how does this relate to privilege?

If I had to speculate, I'd note that a patriarchal society does not accord privilege to men per se. It accords privilege to men who embody the stereotypical masculine qualities; there's a difference. For those who need to reach out for help, that necessitates stepping out from behind those stereotypes - and therefore one's privilege - to get it.

This also goes some way to explaining the high suicide rates in the gay community as the members of it live pretty much permanently in transgression of those stereotypes. Just speculating though.

[LanceWisely]

Guns are definitely a big part of it. I've considered suicide before, and much of my mental effort was spent contemplating how best to ensure that a single shot would be fatal with certainty.

It occurs to me that higher suicide rates among men may be related to the ways in which patriarchal gender roles hurt men. Men in our society are socialised not to show "weakness" or emotion, and to just "tough it out" when they're sick/depressed/etc. As Blue said above, this can mean that men are discouraged from seeking help for problems like depression, because to admit to being depressed is seen by some gender-role enforcers as a sign of "weakness" or effeminacy. The result may be that men who suffer from problems such as depression do not receive the help and treatment they need, and may be more likely to commit suicide as a result.

I think this is really on track, and I'd like to add a personal perspective to it in the vein of "patriarch hurts men too." I'm new to feminism, so this is all fresh for me. I came because someone pierced the veil of my privilege for me, and I care about justice. I came because I will have a daughter one day. I thought that this would largely be a selfless act on my part.

Feminism has opened my eyes to so much about myself, and my own life. Much of the pain that I have experienced in my life has been a direct result of frustrations and failures in romantic relationships, in the failure to successfully love and be loved. All of this has close ties to my own sexism and misogyny. I unwittingly sabotaged my own relationships by being arrogant, dismissive, condescending, patronizing, and entitled. I bought into the gender roles, into the whole system, and played my part as well as I could. Though you could not have convinced me of it at the time, I saw "women" as a monolithic and abstract other, and part of a system in which I could achieve the rewards of emotional and sexual satisfaction by correctly fulfilling my own role expectations. Not only is this untrue, and unrealistic, but trying to fulfill those roles actually prevents having any kind of real relationship with a woman. From the patriarchal perspective, the injustice of it is maddening. All of this places him on a path not only to leave wreckage in his path as he hurts one person and and then another, but virtually guarantees his own emotional destruction, and the frustration of his dreams. It becomes mentally destabilizing after a while. You've seen the results: bitter, angry men who place the blame on women and become quite hateful about it. Off the cuff, I'd be willing to be that a sizeable fraction of MRAs have a similar story, and just haven't become aware of their own responsibility in the matter.

I came to help women and my future daughters, but I'm staying for myself and my future sons. FTB and Atheism+ have specifically done a lot to open my eyes, and I thank you for that.

[hyperdeath]

MODERATOR NOTICE: Unless you're discussing Hitler's downfall, the phrases "suicide" and "good riddance" do not belong in the same post.

[Jadehawk]

If I had to speculate, I'd note that a patriarchal society does not accord privilege to men per se. It accords privilege to men who embody the stereotypical masculine qualities; there's a difference. For those who need to reach out for help, that necessitates stepping out from behind those stereotypes - and therefore one's privilege - to get it.

yup. masculinity demands "strong silent types", which means 1)no show of weakness, including mental and physical disease, and 2)not ever talking about emotions, thus depriving oneself of actual help in case of mental health problems.

more speculatively, i wonder whether the "cry for help" type of suicide attempt also is rarer among men because doing that would be perceived as extreme weakness; as "failing at failing", so to speak.

[qmartindale]

Lots of good hypothesis generation here. Does anyone know if any research has been done on this issue (the correlation of high/low privilege and suicide)? A brief internet search proved fruitless.

[rumblestiltsken]

I have some time off next week, hopefully I can get into some literature and find out. It seems like a testable hypothesis, and there is tons of data.

[Xisor]

MODERATOR NOTICE: Unless you're discussing Hitler's downfall, the phrases "suicide" and "good riddance" do not belong in the same post.

Noted, terrible phrasing from me. Sorry. To everyone who stumbled on that particular bit of idiocy of mine, I'd still reiterate the rest of (what I hope is reasonable) stuff in the post: second order alienation. (In tune with what others have noted about the 'strong, silent' side of it. That, again, chimes with what I'd heard via: http://www.chooselife.net/ )

Not everyone who's privileged benefits equally, within that group it's not inconceivable that there's those who suffer a much more nuanced, near-invisible injustice? Which is to say, tackling the mass privilege ('good riddance to the privileged', I apologise again: remove their privilege, bring about actual justice and level the playing field) might inadvertently have more specific, higher-pressure and intense effects on the subset who're not so privileged.

Or to put it another way: who's going to be more sexist, the working class cis white male or the middle class, well educated cis white male. Within that group, however, there's still tiering and nuance: who, of those groups, is more likely to comprehend and understand the (pretty reasonable, though evidently divisive) outrage embodied by the A+ banner?

This is, of course, entirely speculative. I'd like to reiterate (and I wish it'd been clear in the original post; it seems so to me - evidently I'm sufficiently wrong) I'd definitely not be expressing that the oppressors should just be committing suicide.

[hyperdeath]

terrible phrasing from me. Sorry.

Thank you. I've edited the original post, to make it clear that you've withdrawn the statement.

[Nevyn]

I am not sure why this would be so. The thought that comes to mind is that a person who is extremely privileged on one or more axis may actually feel disconnected from society by that privilege. The trope of billionaires looking down on the huddled masses might be relevant. That disconnection and isolation from wider society may play a big part.

Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett did work correlating income inequality with social ills. Website and book. It occurs that perhaps similar factors could be in play in the current discussion. Granted we're talking about privilege and not strictly speaking income, but there is significant correlation.